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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Cabrera beats Trout for A.L. MVP

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 15, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Triple crown winner Miguel Cabrera has won the American League MVP award.

The highly debated contest was more lopsided than expected. Cabrera was listed first on 22 of 28 ballots. Trout was listed first on the other six.

Yankees second baseman Robinson Cano finished fourth behind Cabrera, Trout and Adrian Beltre. Cano got six third-place votes and 10 fourth-place votes.

Most significant for the Yankees is Derek Jeter’s seven-place finish. Had Jeter finished one spot higher, his 2014 option would have been $2 million more expensive. But for that incentive to kick in, he had to finish in at least sixth place. Jeter’s 2014 option is already $1.5 million larger because of his Silver Slugger win.

Rafael Soriano finished 20th with an eight-place vote and a ninth-place vote.

Oddly enough, Raul Ibanez got one 10th-place vote.

In the National League, Buster Posey was named the MVP. He got 27 of 32 first-place votes. Mets third baseman David Wright finished sixth, and former Yankees second baseman Alfonso Soriano got a few low-on-the-ballot votes.

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246 Responses to “Cabrera beats Trout for A.L. MVP”

  1. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    Trout robbed, just like Jeter in 09 & 06.

  2. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    mick November 15th, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    But what’s the point of trading pitchers for pitchers especially if you’re own don’t make as much and the goal is to have a cost controlled rotation.
    ======================================
    They can trade for prospects.

    ————————————————————

    They could but then they would have to develop those guys properly. They have trouble developing their own.

  3. blake November 15th, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    Congrats Miggy and Posey . Both deserving.

    Ibanez got a vote….hilarious.

    Jeter 7th not 6th so no bonus! 7th is still good though and cheaper.

  4. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    mick November 15th, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    They could but then they would have to develop those guys properly. They have trouble developing their own.
    ================
    I’m sure many teams do.
    ————————-

    Rays do fine and before ppl bring up the high picks cliche outside of Price and Longoria who else was a high pick???

  5. blake November 15th, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    @jcrasnick: A 10th place vote and 1 point for Raul Ibanez. #yankees

    Lol

  6. Pat M. November 15th, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    Face…..H ewon the Triple Crown !!!!! Doesn’t exactly happen very decade now does it ????? Spreedsheet dudes keep trying but HR’S Ribbies & BA still are what drives the game offensivley……Just appreciate how hard that is to accomplish, even for Sunday morning beer league softball players like yourself

  7. RadioKev November 15th, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    blake November 15th, 2012 at 6:52 pm
    Congrats Miggy and Posey . Both deserving.

    Ibanez got a vote….hilarious.

    Jeter 7th not 6th so no bonus! 7th is still good though and cheaper.
    ———

    Agree with all of this.

  8. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    Pat M,

    Ah so base running & defense don’t count for you too? Cool, good to know! Trout put together a season that had never been done before for a 20 year old, much more ‘historic’ than a guy leading the league in 3 arbitrary categories.

  9. G. Love November 15th, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    If Ibanez didn’t hit, they don’t win the east since no one else on the team was capable in September/October.

    Was it a Baltimore writer who voted Ibanez?

    Although, after getting 1 MVP vote Cashman has just decided Ibanez has priced himself out of the Yankees market. He was hoping to get Ibanez to pay the Yankees next season $10 per at bat for uniform rental and grounds fees.

  10. The Return of Stoneburner November 15th, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Rays do fine and before ppl bring up the high picks cliche outside of Price and Longoria who else was a high pick???

    *****

    A Cy Young Ace and a cornerstone 3b – that’s pretty good alone. Delmon Young got them Garza and Bartlett – two big pieces of the 2008 run – and Garza was flipped with Archer and the gang – some of those pieces might be used to get Justin Upton. As mentioned before – they had the top draft pick in the Posey draft and blew it on Beckham – Neiman was good – and BJ Upton did put on a clinic in Fenway in ’08 and did well overall that year – - – -

  11. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    22 of 28 1st place votes to Cabrera.
    Sabers lose again.

  12. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    They’re only albatrosses if you allow them to be.
    ===============================
    Not sure what that means. Most agree Alex’ deal hurts the team.

    In the future, a budget will certainly be a limiting factor when it comes to salaries, if need be.

    It’s all conjecture.
    We can only hope for the best….

  13. Villa Nova-Ya November 15th, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    Jeter is such a team guy. ;)

    Hmm. As I said earlier, can’t yell too loudly about Cabrera getting it, but surprised it wasn’t close.

    I do think it’s cool Ibanez got a vote.

    Pat M – Hi!

  14. Pat M. November 15th, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    Face, what Trout did was incredible no doubt, however we’re talking about an historic accomplishment that Miggy turned in this season…….And as I stated on the last thread, Detroit doesn’t make the playoffs without him, Angels were going no where with or without Trout……

  15. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    Sabers are gunning for their own award.

    But there is no interest….

  16. RadioKev November 15th, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 6:57 pm
    Pat M,

    Ah so base running & defense don’t count for you too? Cool, good to know! Trout put together a season that had never been done before for a 20 year old, much more ‘historic’ than a guy leading the league in 3 arbitrary categories.
    ———

    Well, it’s not arbitrary. It’s part of the games history. Those were the statistics that the game was centered around for so long. Obviously there are more in-depth, critical, meaningful statistics now, but it is part of the game’s history. Choosing someone as the MVP enshrines them in that history, and history is mostly just the narrative we (or someone) purposefully crafts.

    Really, the voters couldn’t make a bad choice between the two, in my opinion. Two great seasons.

  17. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    Angels were going no where with or without Trout…
    ===============================
    They could have finished last…

  18. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    Well, it’s not arbitrary. It’s part of the games history. Those were the statistics that the game was centered around for so long.
    =======================
    A good argument against steroid usage as well.

  19. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    Well, it’s not arbitrary. It’s part of the games history. Those were the statistics that the game was centered around for so long.

    The statistics chosen for the triple crown are arbitrary, they were arbitrary when they were chosen and are even more arbitrary now that the game has evolved past them.

  20. RadioKev November 15th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Pat M. November 15th, 2012 at 7:02 pm
    Face, what Trout did was incredible no doubt, however we’re talking about an historic accomplishment that Miggy turned in this season…….And as I stated on the last thread, Detroit doesn’t make the playoffs without him, Angels were going no where with or without Trout……
    ———

    Well, in all fairness, had Trout been with the team at the start of the season, who knows?

    Cabrera did have a better second half with the bat, and a much better down-the-stretch too. I think it’s a point worth arguing.

  21. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    what Trout did was incredible no doubt, however we’re talking about an historic accomplishment that Miggy turned in this season

    Trouts season was far more historic than Cabreras, given that it had never been done before in the history of the game.

  22. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    The Angels won more games than the Tigers, boo for them they had to play in a harder division. If the Tigers were in the AL West Miggy would have been watching the WS at home.

  23. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    Ah so base running & defense
    ====================
    Ah so?

  24. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Not sure what that means. Most agree Alex’ deal hurts the team.

    In the future, a budget will certainly be a limiting factor when it comes to salaries, if need be.

    It means that Alex’s contract hurts the team only if the team is operating on a budget where A-rod’s deal takes up space. If they said F it, counted it as a sunk cost, and spent anyways, it would not be an albatross.

    If the Yankees are limiting themselves on salaries, they will just lose players to other teams.

  25. blake November 15th, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Trout faded in August and September…..Miggy surged….that’s why he won.

  26. RadioKev November 15th, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:04 pm
    Well, it’s not arbitrary. It’s part of the games history. Those were the statistics that the game was centered around for so long.

    The statistics chosen for the triple crown are arbitrary, they were arbitrary when they were chosen and are even more arbitrary now that the game has evolved past them.
    ——–

    Hey man, invent your own history if you like. They weren’t arbitrary to baseball fans and players. They’re not arbitrary now. It’s not like someone just randomly picked them. They’re there because of history. Call that ridiculous if you want, but it’s not the same thing.

  27. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Trout faded in August and September…..Miggy surged….that’s why he won.

    Cabrera only beat him by 30 OPS points and Trout out hit him in the ‘crucial final 2 weeks of the season’, so what now?

  28. austinmac November 15th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    A seventh place finish. Hooray, another two million we can be under the cap.

  29. Pat M. November 15th, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    Villa Nova -Ya…..Hello and you turned in a solid performance today…..Face, you just can’t acknowledge that you’re wrong……..Dodge Ball head trama is what you suffer from, it must have been hard being you as a kid…….Hell it’s hard being you as an psuedo Adult

  30. Benny Blanco November 15th, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    Lets see trout do it again this season.

  31. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Pat M,

    Stick to chewing up percocets, wash it down with some whiskey while you’re at it.

  32. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    The Return of Stoneburner November 15th, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Rays do fine and before ppl bring up the high picks cliche outside of Price and Longoria who else was a high pick???

    *****

    A Cy Young Ace and a cornerstone 3b – that’s pretty good alone. Delmon Young got them Garza and Bartlett – two big pieces of the 2008 run – and Garza was flipped with Archer and the gang – some of those pieces might be used to get Justin Upton. As mentioned before – they had the top draft pick in the Posey draft and blew it on Beckham – Neiman was good – and BJ Upton did put on a clinic in Fenway in ’08 and did well overall that year – –

    ————-

    Understood but fans of other teams always scream of course they have good young players they have all those high picks. The Pirates had high picks for yrs and haven’t developed as well as the Rays in recent history.

  33. blake November 15th, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    Cabrera only beat him by 30 OPS points and Trout out hit him in the ‘crucial final 2 weeks of the season’, so what now?”

    30 OPS points over what period…..over about the last 6 weeks of the season Miggy beat him by about 200 OPS pts

  34. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    30 OPS points over what period…..over about the last 6 weeks of the season Miggy beat him by about 200 OPS pts

    30 points over the whole season. Trout beat Miggy by 200 points in OPS over the final 2 weeks. This is why arbitrary end points are stupid. Trout was better in the final stretch of play, where playoff spots were decided.

    Miggy is lucky the white sox collapsed.

  35. Villa Nova-Ya November 15th, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    Thanks Pat.

    Good topics the last couple of days. My two cents was burning a hole in my pocket. ;)

  36. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    And of course over the final 6 weeks, Trout stole 18 bags and played GG defense…

  37. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    Miggy is lucky the white sox collapsed.
    ========================
    They collapsed because Miggy beat em.

  38. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    Best overall player does not = MVP.

  39. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 7:17 pm

    It means that Alex’s contract hurts the team only if the team is operating on a budget where A-rod’s deal takes up space. If they said F it, counted it as a sunk cost, and spent anyways, it would not be an albatross.

    ————————

    I think ppl are forgetting that the Yankees would just outspend their problems. It was the one thing that set them apart from other teams. What they are doing now is losing the one advantage they had. They now have to be creative which I’m not sure they can be.

  40. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:17 pm

    They now have to be creative which I’m not sure they can be.
    =======================================
    Why not?

  41. blake November 15th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    Best news for Hal is he saves 2 million for Jeter in 2014 with the 7th place finish instead of 6th

  42. RadioKev November 15th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    As far as I could tell Posey winning over Braun is a bigger robbery. What’s the deal there? Is it something I’m missing, or just the steroids haunting Braun?

  43. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    The MVP has something to do with winning, I think….

  44. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    Best overall player does not = MVP.

    That is exactly what the award is / should be. The best player is the most valuable by virtue of being the best player.

    Considering the criteria asks voters to consider offense AND defense AND character, no way Miggy shoulda been the MVP. He already won the Hank Aaron award, which he deserved for best hitter.

  45. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    The MVP has something to do with winning, I think….

    “The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.” From the criteria

  46. blake November 15th, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    @thomloverro: Miguel Cabrera wins AL MVP. In basements across America, Mike Trout groupies are crying in their mother’s meat loaf

  47. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    “Baseball is art, not science.”

    Nice quote by Klapisch.

  48. RadioKev November 15th, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:15 pm
    Best overall player does not = MVP.
    ———

    I always think of performance/dollars spent as the most literal definition of Most Valuable Player. In that case Trout wins hands down.

  49. blake November 15th, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    @BertDbacks: John Lowe of Detroit Free Press voted Raul Ibanez 10th on his AL MVP ballot but did NOT vote for Robinson Cano. #Yankees

    Why do they let some of these bozos vote?

  50. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    The best player is the most valuable by virtue of being the best player.
    ========================
    22 of 28 baseball writers disagree.

  51. Pat M. November 15th, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    Villa Nova-Ya…….Spend for money here because this place is much improved when you visit and share your opinions…..Face, thank’s for reminding me about the percocets, my knee is hurting bad today…..

  52. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:17 pm

    They now have to be creative which I’m not sure they can be.
    =======================================
    Why not?
    ——————————————————————–

    Because during the dynasty yrs things were different and the playing field was that deep.

    We saw how hard it was for them to even out a staff together after 03. Hell it was even harder to put together a viable bp during that time. The FO has to be smart and shrewd and I don’t think they have what it takes to do that.

  53. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    Because during the dynasty yrs things were different and the playing field was that deep.
    ===============
    The Dynasty is over?

  54. RadioKev November 15th, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    Posey had the better OPS+ I guess. And he’s a catcher.

    You wanna talk stolen bases though? 30 to 1.

  55. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    Because during the dynasty yrs things were different and the playing field was that deep.
    ===============
    The Dynasty is over?

    ——————————

    Depends on where you want to end it at. Some say 01 others say 03.

    ****wasn’t that deep****

  56. RadioKev November 15th, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    I remember thinking about Trout, “he’ll never live up to the hype.”

    Oops.

  57. mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    Depends on where you want to end it at. Some say 01 others say 03.
    ==================
    In the history of baseball the Yanks are the one and only dynastic team.

  58. CompassRosy November 15th, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    Matt Sussman ?@suss2hyphens
    For AL MVP, “Red Sox implosion” was on 3 ballots.
    Retweeted by robneyer

  59. luis November 15th, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    Mac,

    Aruba would be a very nice place to chill ;) You are invited to the party too…Escape the Winter and watch some baseball ;)

    For me…Both cases had merit…Old school won today…It might change in the future, but both guys were deserving…The triple crown hasn’t been achieved in over 50 years or close to that, so it was quite a feat…Same goes with Trout’s season, I think he out WAR Miggy by 10,7 to 6,2. I am fine with either choice. They are both deserving

  60. The Return of Stoneburner November 15th, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    Understood but fans of other teams always scream of course they have good young players they have all those high picks. The Pirates had high picks for yrs and haven’t developed as well as the Rays in recent history.

    *****

    Fair and good points – - – -

  61. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    mick November 15th, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    Depends on where you want to end it at. Some say 01 others say 03.
    ==================
    In the history of baseball the Yanks are the one and only dynastic team.
    ————————

    Are they a dynasty now??

  62. CompassRosy November 15th, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 6:48 pm
    Trout robbed, just like Jeter in 09 & 06.

    ~

    and, for those so inclined, like Alex in 1996…

  63. blake November 15th, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    Trout wasn’t robbed at all

  64. luis November 15th, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    Odds,

    The dynasty ended after game 7 of the WS in 2001… But Mick has a point that the Yankees hav had many dynasties throughout time… Some could argue that the Sux had one prior the fateful trade of babe Ruth.

  65. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    Totally robbed. Played better at a better position. Was Jeter not robbed in 06? Incredibly similar story. Player at a better position, hits 30 OPS pts worse than a ‘clutch’ 1st baseman who got some rbis in the 2nd half.

  66. RadioKev November 15th, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    I was listening to a sports talk station here in Boston, the guys were talking about the AL MVP vote. One guy says he doesn’t like all the new stats and whatever, but that he loves OPS and thinks it works perfectly.

    :roll:

    Serves me right for listening to sports talk.

  67. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    luis November 15th, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    Odds,

    The dynasty ended after game 7 of the WS in 2001… But Mick has a point that the Yankees hav had many dynasties throughout time… Some could argue that the Sux had one prior the fateful trade of babe Ruth.

    ———————-

    True

  68. Tar November 15th, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    “Only 5 AL outfielders in the history of the game have compiled a 10 War. Babe Ruth, Micky Mantle, Yaz, Ted Williams and Mike Trout.”

    Tim Kurkijan

    Pretty Impressive company.

  69. blake November 15th, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    “Was Jeter not robbed in 06? Incredibly similar story. Player at a better position, hits 30 OPS pts worse than a ‘clutch’ 1st baseman who got some rbis in the 2nd half.”

    What were morneu’s numbers compared to Cabrera’s that year?

  70. blake November 15th, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    “Only 5 AL outfielders in the history of the game have compiled a 10 War. Babe Ruth, Micky Mantle, Yaz, Ted Williams and Mike Trout.”

    I bet the defensive component for the babe is real accurate

  71. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    Pat M. November 15th, 2012 at 6:56 pm
    Face…..H ewon the Triple Crown !!!!! Doesn’t exactly happen very decade now does it ????? Spreedsheet dudes keep trying but HR’S Ribbies & BA still are what drives the game offensivley……Just appreciate how hard that is to accomplish, even for Sunday morning beer league softball players like yourself

    Tell you what, put 9 Trout’s on one team and 9 Cabrera’s on the other, each with corresponding defensive ability at their position (the Trout’s are awesome, the Cabrera’s suck), and watch the Trout’s just beat the crap out of the Cabrera’s.

  72. LGY November 15th, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    Oh man, wrong decision.

    It’s the Most Valuable Player, not Most Valuable Hitter award.

  73. The Return of Stoneburner November 15th, 2012 at 7:59 pm

    I don’t like the amount of Ks for Trout – he may cut them down – but give me old faithful:

    http://www.baseball-reference......be02.shtml – in ’98 he put up those numbers in only 128 games – - – -

  74. yankee21 November 15th, 2012 at 7:59 pm

    I have no problem with a triple crown winner getting the MVP.

    Trout looks to be a generational-type talent, if that really is the case, barring chronic injury, he will have repeated chances to win the MVP as well.

    FWIW I would have picked Cabrera. In my mind, he is the best overall hitter in the game. He really does not have any weaknesses.

    If I’m building a team from scratch though, I will take the 21 year old Trout to start off.

  75. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    blake November 15th, 2012 at 7:20 pm
    @BertDbacks: John Lowe of Detroit Free Press voted Raul Ibanez 10th on his AL MVP ballot but did NOT vote for Robinson Cano. #Yankees

    Why do they let some of these bozos vote?

    Yeah, I bet he voted for Cabrera over Trout too…

  76. trisha - true pinstriped blue November 15th, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    Villa, absolutely excellent posts today. You managed to highlight so many of the nuances that black-and-white posters either refuse to or genuinely don’t have the ability to understand. But those nuances are reality and add to the uncertainty of outcomes, regardless of how much your team spends or how many “sure bets” you have on your roster.

    There are a zillion and one reasons that things play out the way they do. If you felt the need to parse out each and every one – if you actually had the skill and expertise to do it that is – you’d probably be making changes every day since perfection exists only in the minds of those fans who can’t deal with anything less and people make mistakes on a daily basis.

    “(Generally speaking. I am okay with just getting to the playoffs though I am super-thrilled when they win the whole enchilada, and some fans share that feeling.)”

    As am I.

    My mantra has always been that I refuse to demand of someone else any more than I demand of myself (pretty self-important and smug to do otherwise, no?). So if I forgive myself for having days where I am not at my best, I certainly forgive it of players who are not wind-up toys.

    “Do you guys enjoy whining ?
    Is it self motivated or is it the tweaking provided by Chad that keeps this blog alive?
    Surely Cone adds an extra 100 or so posts to keep this party afloat…”

    I always love it when mick joins the party. Talk about keeping people honest!

    “I’d venture the Yankees have a plan. They don’t feel the need to make the world privy to that plan. I also have an opinion that some pieces of their plan, started several years ago, but didn’t quite work out the way they hoped and complicated this entire situation right now. (they were hoping to have a pitching staff in place that didn’t hinge on Pettitte and Kuroda, for instance)”

    Perfectly reasonable perspective Villa. You and I and some others here apparently don’t feel that the Yankees have any obligation to share their thoughts with the fanbase, and it’s more than obvious that they’ve had a strategy. And how dare life intervene and throw that strategy off its course!

  77. Pat M. November 15th, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    I’ve always respected what the players and coaches have to say rather than scribes but it wasn’t really a close race as Miggy gets the honors……Miggy also led the league in slugging and total runs ( ? ) too……..He won the triple crown….It’s like a pitcher winning their Triple Crown and not winning the Cy Young

  78. Tar November 15th, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    “I bet the defensive component for the babe is real accurate”

    I think you are aware of my feeling on UZR and such. But any list that starts with the Babe and ends with the Mick is pretty darn good company.

  79. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    Hi All Good People! Great to see you standing. Just checking in over a mundane stove :)

  80. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    Historical WAR does not use uzr

  81. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    Both Cabrera and Trout were worthy.

    They each did spectacular things this past season.

    Unfortunately, they had to pick only one.

    Trout is young. If he keeps it up I expect he’ll get another opportunity.

    I understand that reasonable people could disagree on who deserved the award.

  82. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    Can somebody please explain to me why the Yankees did not go hard after Cespedes ?

    We needed a ML-ready young OF’er didn’t we ?

    He seems to be a pretty good one.

    ;)

  83. Tar November 15th, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    Historical WAR does not use uzr”

    JF

    How does that work?

  84. Triple Short of a Cycle November 15th, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    Trisha,

    Have you ever been in a cult?

  85. Pat M. November 15th, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    MTU…….Cespedes came in 2nd in ROY is not correct ???? Some thought he’d be a AA / AAA player for a year or so

  86. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 8:23 pm

    In my other world,…Cespedes is of course,….a Jay and I’ve just recovered from another triumph.

  87. blake November 15th, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    “Historical WAR does not use uzr”

    It uses guesstimation

  88. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    Pat M.-

    Seems like we missed badly on that evaluation.

    And it was a significant area of need.

    We passed on Soler too but I can understand that a bit more.

  89. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    I explained it awhile back with links to the explanation but I think it uses total zone based on the play by play data available.

  90. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    I am also puzzled on how we let an arm like Chapman’s get away from us.

    He is to be converted back into a starter next year.

    These were just about money. Were they not ?

    No effect on the cap, etc.

  91. jmv November 15th, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    Good evening

    I knew this place would be on fire this day, LOL

    As far as I know, MVP is a subjective prize. I don´t know how someone can be robbed from it. Both were deserving, IMHO, as my good friend MTU says, so no big deal. You can argue for one or the other, but at the end who is really right?

    I’m very happy for Miguel. Triple Crowns don’t grow on trees. I was rooting for him

  92. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    The yankees became incredibly risk averse on intl free agents post igawa. Their risk aversion means they lost out on 3 players that would be helping them out greatly in getting under 189

  93. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    Jmv,….get back in your Ferrari! :)

  94. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    JF-

    So you think it was risk aversion rather than poor evaluation ?

    I think it’s possible we just missed too.

    I remember some of the reported scouting and it was badly mistaken in the light of current events.

    Of course we now have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

  95. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:37 pm

    But the A’s and Reds got it right.

    ;)

  96. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 8:38 pm

    Well the yankees could have correctly evaluated the upside of darvish, cespedes, and chappy but not wanted to test it for the money required. They should have given money is their 1 advantage. They could have misevaluated as well.

  97. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    JF-

    Darvish cost a lot of moolah so I can understand a bit of reluctance there but Cespedes and Chapman were relative bargains.

  98. austinmac November 15th, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    MTU,

    I think it is risk aversion post Igawa.

  99. Pat M. November 15th, 2012 at 8:42 pm

    MTU……There was concern in many Front Offices about Chapman being an expensive and unproven Big League reliever as opposed to being an unproven starter………I thought he was more of a gamble than Cespedes was but 100 + mph is 100+ mph….And they too don’t grow on trees…….I think Cashman and Company just didn’t care for the taste nor the expense for unproven foriegn pitchers…..I saw him in San Diego during the WBC warming up and man did he throw hard

  100. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 8:43 pm

    Darvish cost more in absolute terms but he also had the higher chance of success. I don’t think the yankees evaluated these players any worse than the teams that signed them, but the yankees weren’t willing to bet on them reaching their upside.

  101. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    Probably almost everyone evaluated Cespedes wrong. I bet almost everyone had him down for 40-50 points less batting average and more power (not that he won’t hit for more power), and probably more strikeouts.

  102. blake November 15th, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    Jerkface says:
    November 15, 2012 at 8:31 pm
    The yankees became incredibly risk averse on intl free agents post igawa. Their risk aversion means they lost out on 3 players that would be helping them out greatly in getting under 189

    Yup

  103. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    Mac-

    Then they need to get over it.

    Or should I have say they needed to get over it.

    One thing has nothing to do with the other. They lost several really great opportunities.

    If they can’t trust their evaluators in general because one may have mad a serious maistake they are misguided.

    Baby should not have been thrown out w the bathwater.

    When you fall off a horse you have to get right back on you’ll never ride again.

    You can’t allow yourself to think that it will happen all the time.

    ;)

  104. RadioKev November 15th, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 8:44 pm
    Probably almost everyone evaluated Cespedes wrong. I bet almost everyone had him down for 40-50 points less batting average and more power (not that he won’t hit for more power), and probably more strikeouts.
    ———-

    I wonder if even the A’s were surprised by his season.

  105. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    Pat M.-

    I agree. 100 is 100. And remember he’s a southpaw.

    Even rarer.

  106. Tar November 15th, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    “I think it is risk aversion post Igawa.”

    Me too. Igawa the gift that keeps on giving.

  107. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    Outsiders I think, in general, expect big triggers out of N.Y..And why not?, they’ve never been down since I was conscious in ’76 ( I was a ’66 baby ). Yes, a few bumps here and there, but still, a major representative all the way. No better division to be born in.

  108. yankee21 November 15th, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    The yankees became incredibly risk averse on intl free agents post igawa. Their risk aversion means they lost out on 3 players that would be helping them out greatly in getting under 189.

    100% agree, it also speaks well of their inability to either correctly evaluate and/or plan ahead even when it could have helped them meet their clear priority, which is of course 189, not 28.

  109. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    I want the Yankees to sign that Superscout that Pitt just released.

    He has an impressive track record.

    Let’s get him on board.

    ;)

  110. blake November 15th, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    “Probably almost everyone evaluated Cespedes wrong. I bet almost everyone had him down for 40-50 points less batting average and more power (not that he won’t hit for more power), and probably more strikeouts.”

    I didn’t know how the hit tool would translate but i did post several times that all you had to do was watch those YouTube videos to see that he can do things that not many guys on the planet can do on a baseball field

  111. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    Let’s steal some of Tampa’s pitching evaluators and development people too.

    our scouting and development departments should be 2nd to none I say.

    ;)

  112. tomingeorgia November 15th, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    MTU,
    As a student pilot flying solo in Minnesota, I made a crosswind landing on a 40′ wide runway with six-foot berms of snow on the edges. Blew it when the wind got under one wing, laid on the throttle and just cleared the berm, and then the hangar. Came around again, made it, rolled out and just sat and sweated for about 20 minutes. If I hadn’t gone up again, right then, I never would have done it again.

  113. blake November 15th, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    “I wonder if even the A’s were surprised by his season.”

    I’m sure….hard to believe anyone thought he would make adjustments as quickly as he was able to

  114. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    Blake-

    You’re hired !

    :)

  115. trisha - true pinstriped blue November 15th, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    “Trisha,

    Have you ever been in a cult?”

    Yes. Maybe you’ve heard of it? It’s the LLL and it’s one step away from the KKK. It stands for Loyalty and Love leads to Liberation.

  116. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 8:56 pm

    Tom,….you’re the man! In boats in harbours too!!!

    Me,…I’m all mental.

  117. PacoDooley November 15th, 2012 at 8:56 pm

    A travesty – apparently being an excellent base runner and defensive player count for very little. As long as other guys score when you are at the plate you are apparently a superior player….

  118. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 8:57 pm

    Trish, and how are you, my friend?

  119. jmv November 15th, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Hey jmills!, How’s the road under your tires? It’s been a while

    MTU,

    You’re hired, too! developing pitchers, good scouting… Sounds like a plan

  120. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Tom-

    My point exactly.

    Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes large ones. Shouldn’t paralyze you.

    Just try not to repeat them.

    The Yankees shouldn’t let themselves be paralyzed in that way either.

    They need young talent more than ever. Come to plate or you can’t get a hit.

    Learn what you did wrong. Don’t shut the whole process down.

  121. tomingeorgia November 15th, 2012 at 9:01 pm

    jmills,
    I somehow get myself into these things. Scary, like a fire fight, but great lessons if you live through them.

  122. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 9:01 pm

    Jmv, the winters are on. I’m the king of snow! ( Not the Fleetwood Mac kind )

  123. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    Well, Tom, we’re all glad you’re here!

  124. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    jmv-

    Thanks. Sorry things didn’t go the way you, I, and Luis hoped for.

    I hope your wife is enjoying her hobby.

    Don’t try too hard to save the World. It’s a lot of work pushing a heavy rock up an incline.

    ;)

  125. trisha - true pinstriped blue November 15th, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    I always feel the need to point out that nothing says that Cespedes, Darvish, Soler, etc. would have had the same kind of seasons in the Bronx that they did elsewhere. Sure they might have, that’s true. But there’s always that temptation to transfer seasons to other locales and we’ve seen that it doesn’t always work out that way.

    And I know this isn’t a question that anyone wants to answer as it tends to throw a reality monkeywrench into the works, but why would the Yankees throw big money at an outfielder when they already had their outfield in place. There are people here who would have cried bitter tears if GGBG was pushed aside for another outfielder. And since the Yankees don’t feel the need to have a superstar at every position, nor sit an unknown quantity on the bench because of potential, they were apparently satsified with their OF.

    Okay, feel free to start target practice…NOW!

  126. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    blake November 15th, 2012 at 8:52 pm
    “Probably almost everyone evaluated Cespedes wrong. I bet almost everyone had him down for 40-50 points less batting average and more power (not that he won’t hit for more power), and probably more strikeouts.”

    I didn’t know how the hit tool would translate but i did post several times that all you had to do was watch those YouTube videos to see that he can do things that not many guys on the planet can do on a baseball field

    Many very athletic players have failed throughout baseball history because they couldn’t put the bat on the ball consistently enough.

  127. blake November 15th, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    MTU,

    Hal would definately not like my idea ;)

  128. pat November 15th, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    Both NY writers who voted for MVP voted Jeter higher than his actually finish and Cano below his actual finish. Feinsand didn’t even have Cano in his top 10?

  129. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    Trisha-

    No target practice. I’m too good of a shot for that.

    Contradicting opinions are welcome FWIS.

    Your points are duly noted especially by me.

    :)

  130. jmv November 15th, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    Thanks to you, MTU. It really was a pitiful result, But we’ll keep the fort as long as we can

    I did promise you some photos. I’m slow, but steady. I’ll keep my promise for sure. December can’t come fast enough

    jmills,

    Be sure to wear those chains in the snow!

  131. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 9:08 pm

    Didn’t Camus write something about Sisphyus pushing a rock up a hill, again, again…( I never read it )

  132. mick November 15th, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    Mr Tom

    Go see Flight starring Denzell.

  133. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    jmv-

    When you get some time.

  134. mick November 15th, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    Both NY writers who voted for MVP voted Jeter higher than his actually finish and Cano below his actual finish. Feinsand didn’t even have Cano in his top 10?
    =====================================
    That’s only because Jeter was more valuable than Cano.

  135. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    Chains are for when you have to drive up to that big olde hotel avec Jack. ” Here’s,………

  136. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    but why would the Yankees throw big money at an outfielder when they already had their outfield in place

    ———

    How much money did Ces even get? Cespedes would have taken over a position in the OF. We know Swisher wasn’t going to be re- signed and no team goes through a season without something going on such as injuries, a bad season, or the normal decline in players

  137. yankee21 November 15th, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    …And I know this isn’t a question that anyone wants to answer as it tends to throw a reality monkeywrench into the works, but why would the Yankees throw big money at an outfielder when they already had their outfield in place. …..

    Trisha, agree that you wouldn’t know if Cespedes would hit as well in NY but you could probably make the case he would hit far better in NYY because YS is a big time hitters park compared to OAK. It is a risk question and NY answered it the way they have consistently answered it for several years now,, they don’t take risks.

    Furthermore it made sense for NYY to seriously evaluate Cespedes for an OF slot for two main reasons:

    1. They had to have known it would be likely for Swisher to become a FA after 2012 and
    2. They had nobody in AAA as a candidate and the two candidates in AA, the Almontes and Mesa were borderline/fringe ML prospects that were at least 2 years away at least.

    So maybe 2012 wasn’t a sure fire need but 2013 by any objective analysis should have been considered as a season in which an OF would be needed.

  138. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 9:12 pm

    Mills-

    That’s in Colorado. It’s long way from you.

  139. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 9:13 pm

    And I know this isn’t a question that anyone wants to answer as it tends to throw a reality monkeywrench into the works, but why would the Yankees throw big money at an outfielder when they already had their outfield in place. There are people here who would have cried bitter tears if GGBG was pushed aside for another outfielder. And since the Yankees don’t feel the need to have a superstar at every position, nor sit an unknown quantity on the bench because of potential, they were apparently satsified with their OF.

    None of your arguments about player positioning ever work. What would they have done? Rotated the DH, as they planned to do anyways, but with a better defender than Ibanez or Andruw Jones. Their outfield was ‘full’ but only for 1 season, and Cespedes could have started in the minors, or as the 4th OFer.

  140. charlestonchew November 15th, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    OK — we can mostly agree here that theres some rationale for Cabrera winning the MVP.

    What i still CANNOT EXPLAIN FOR THE LIFE OF ME is why Justin Verlander won the MVP last year. Unbelievably disastrous decision by the writers. At least this one is defensible.

    And what about Pedroia a few years before? They just do not understand baseball and how to evaluate performance. Writers are far too smitten with story lines to think clearly about MVP voting. Is the first triple crown in decades a great story line? Yes. But Cabrera was not nearly as deserving as Trout.

  141. tomingeorgia November 15th, 2012 at 9:15 pm

    Mr. mick,
    I’m forty miles from the nearest multiplex, over a very dark road with no shoulders. Lots of movies to see, but not enough ambition. That’s why I hang around here so much! That at least takes care of the fantasy genre.

  142. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    Blake-

    If Hal is foolish enough not to want you then I’ll take you on the Island.

    And guess what ? Hal isn’t invited.

    ;)

  143. trisha - true pinstriped blue November 15th, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    jmills – absolutely excellent, thank you for asking! Very busy with work and beginning preparations for the holidays. I know it’s not wildly popular to be happy for teams in you own division when they get great players (and it’s certainly understandable) but if the deal with the Marlins goes through, I will be very excited for you. It has to be a very exciting time to be a Jays fan!!!

    Understand of course that the backdrop in which it is happening makes me want to scream, and the whole baseball world has its eyes on Bud the Bandit to see what he’s going to do (I believe the final script was written before Loria made the deal public and the rest is for nothing more than show) – but I am still so happy for you in terms of your team getting excellent players.

    The tougher the competition, the more my team has to stay sharp and take nothing for granted. To me that’s a good thing. It’s what real competition is about!

    I’m never rivetted to the off-season because I come from the school of unconditional love. Que sera sera, c’est vrai, oui mon ami?

  144. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 9:17 pm

    The Yankees have carried 4 quality OFers for multiple seasons in the past. When they had combinations of Sheffield, Abreu, Damon, Melky, Bernie, Matsui on the team. It is so not hard to find time to play 4 OFers, when you have the DH & 3 OF spots to work with and 4 guys who can each play 2 OF spots. One of whom can play 3.

  145. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 9:17 pm

    Swisher can also play 1st. If they had Cespedes they could have actually rested Granderson at some point in the first half.

  146. mick November 15th, 2012 at 9:18 pm

    Mr Tom

    You are a prisoner of the LoHud.

  147. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 9:18 pm

    Trisha-

    Are things normalizing in your area ?

  148. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 9:19 pm

    pat November 15th, 2012 at 9:06 pm
    Both NY writers who voted for MVP voted Jeter higher than his actually finish and Cano below his actual finish. Feinsand didn’t even have Cano in his top 10?

    If that is true, Feinsand is even more of a joke than I thought he was.

    Where can I look this up?

  149. pat November 15th, 2012 at 9:19 pm

    Evan_P_Grant
    For those carping about the BBWAA awards, a quick reminder: They are OUR awards.

  150. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    MTU, I know, I have the original soundtrack somewhere. ( Scare the heck out of any potential date :) )

    I also like Mike Olfield’s, ” Tubular Bells ” – the beginning part.

  151. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    If that is true, Feinsand is even more of a joke than I thought he was.

    Where can I look this up?

    It is true! Feinsand sucks.

    http://bbwaa.com/12-al-mvp/

  152. jmv November 15th, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    Yankee21,

    You are right. They don’t take risks. They could get away with it if they were willing to spend, but that won’t be the case until 2015/16. We have to embrace a couple of years of stopgaps

  153. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    “We are all just prisoners here and can never leave.”

    :)

  154. austinmac November 15th, 2012 at 9:21 pm

    No matter how the Yankees evaluated Cespedes they weren’t going to spend $9M in 2014. That is our reality. No one costly. Ibanez is cheap. They will keep it up.

  155. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    Mills-

    Tubular bells. Yup. excellent.

    :)

  156. pat November 15th, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    Where can I look this up?

    http://bbwaa.com/12-al-mvp/

  157. MTU November 15th, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    Proximo Hilo —>

  158. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    No matter how the Yankees evaluated Cespedes they weren’t going to spend $9M in 2014. That is our reality. No one costly. Ibanez is cheap. They will keep it up.

    Yea which is a real misuse of resources. Paying 9 million for a guy worth 15-18 million would have been good… Considering Granderson & Swisher would both be off the books.

  159. jmills November 15th, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    Trish, you’ve got it. Tell ‘em to go, ” ite ad infernum!”

    ( The ” deal ” better go thru )

  160. austinmac November 15th, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    JF,

    Your logic on Cespedes is indisputable for a team actually willing to continue spending. It is not about value, it is about cost these days.

  161. trisha - true pinstriped blue November 15th, 2012 at 9:28 pm

    “None of your arguments about player positioning ever work. What would they have done? Rotated the DH, as they planned to do anyways, but with a better defender than Ibanez or Andruw Jones. Their outfield was ‘full’ but only for 1 season, and Cespedes could have started in the minors, or as the 4th OFer.”

    JF, it just doesn’t work that way in real life. Show me another team that would pay big money for a hot prospect and then shuffle him to AAA or sit him on the bench and just play him intermittently. I think we all know that they Yankees weren’t planning to have Ibanez or Jones play in the OF as much as they ended up playing (file that under the vagaries of the game). If Gardner had stayed healthy, we might have had a different outcome to the postseason from the one we had, who knows.

    I’m not saying that having Cespedes wouldn’t have been a super cool thing, just that it’s a nicely scripted feel-good story but one that just doesn’t translate well into reality.

    Look you can make a case for just about anything. And it isn’t that what you propose is so outlandish as not to be believable. It’s just that it doesn’t end up being practical, and baseball, Yankee baseball certainly, is pretty formulaic.

  162. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 9:32 pm

    JF, it just doesn’t work that way in real life. Show me another team that would pay big money for a hot prospect and then shuffle him to AAA or sit him on the bench and just play him intermittent

    Easy, the Reds who signed Chapman for 36 million and started him in AAA. And they didn’t have to start him in AAA, it would simply be an option. There is no telling what Cespedes contract situation would be like if he signed with the Yankees.

    The bottom line is they had room for him. They ended up with 5 OFers on the roster, and as Girardi showed willingness to play them from Day 1. Ibanez started in the field the 3rd game of the season. Cespedes would have been an ideal platoon partner for Gardner & Granderson being right handed.

  163. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 9:32 pm

    It’s just that it doesn’t end up being practical, and baseball, Yankee baseball certainly, is pretty formulaic.

    If it is so impractical how did the Yankees get away with carrying 4 everyday OFers for YEARS prior to 2010????????????????????????????????????????? Literally all the logic is on the side of ‘they would have found a way to play Cespedes’

  164. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    I can understand an argument that goes with Cespedes was risky, or whatever, but not one based on playing time/roster space. Its just too simple to rotate players in the OF, the Yankees have carried multiple OFers before, and Gardner is making peanuts & would be just fine as a 4th OFer / pinch runner if they wanted to not rotate (though with no DH they could have just rotated).

  165. trisha - true pinstriped blue November 15th, 2012 at 9:56 pm

    JF, then maybe they saw him as risky. And potentially expensive if he was a well-known, highly-scouted entity.

    I don’t think the Yanks are at all averse to carrying 4 outfielders. I think the Yanks are averse to paying big money to someone who’s going to be their 4th outfielder and paying big money to someone who may turn out to be great for them or may not – as their 4th OF.

  166. tucker November 15th, 2012 at 10:20 pm

    Cespedes is example A about how the Yanks budget really is not about 189, it’s just about cutting costs. The goal is 189 now — the public face of the cost cutting movement that started two years before the CBA and 189 even existed.

    Jerkface correctly points out he value Cespedes would have brought to the team. He would have fit 189 perfectly. Just didn’t fit into Hal’s spreadsheet.

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