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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


PEDs come front and center on HOF ballot

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 28, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

First things first, in the wake of the Andy Pettitte deal, I’m going to host a chat tomorrow at noon. Stop by if you can and we’ll talk about the Yankees offseason heading into next week’s winter meetings. We might even find some time to talk about the Hall of Fame ballot that was released today.

When it comes to the Hall of Fame, I tend to agree with our old friend Pete Abraham, who wrote today that he’s submitting a HOF ballot that reflects production, not suspicion.

Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and the rest of the scoundrels will get my vote. I’ll look at the players based on their statistical merit, how they compared to other players of their era and to other players in the Hall of Fame. I won’t sit at my desk and do Google searches to decide who is clean and who was cheating.

If you think that is a cowardly way out, I can’t argue with you. But it beats stabbing around in the dark and hoping to be right.

I’m a long way from having a Hall of Fame vote, and honestly, I’m happy about that. For now, it’s easy for me to sit back and have my vague opinion with no real consequence. I don’t have to study statistics or come up with my own definition of “integrity,” which is a stated part of the voters’ criteria. I can watch with interest, but without impact. I’m OK with that, because I’m not sure we’re far enough removed from the Steroid Era — if we’re removed from it at all — to have a clear understanding of what it means in the history of this game.

But certainly the steroid impact is going to be the hot button topic for this year’s Hall of Fame ballot.

Three players received at least 50 percent of the vote last year
Jack Morris (66.7 percent), Jeff Bagwell (56.0 percent), Lee Smith (50.6 percent)

Bagwell was kept out last year because of steroid suspicion. Smith is in that relief-pitcher gray area. Morris is one of the most hotly debated candidates on the ballot, and has been for a long time.

One of last year’s first timers earned enough votes to stay on the ballot this year
Bernie Williams

An overwhelming favorite in New York, Williams falls into that not-quite-a-Hall-of-Famer category for most voters. Probably won’t change this year.

Nine other players are returning to the ballot
Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Dale Murphy, Tim Raines, Larry Walker, Alan Trammell, Edgar Martinez

Of this group, Raines got the most support last year with 48.7 percent of the vote. McGwire and Palmeiro are tainted by steroids, and Martinez’s support has been minimized because he was a designated hitter. Trammell, Walker and Murphy have some real believers out there, but so far not enough for induction. Mattingly is obviously a Yankees favorite, but he didn’t even crack 20 percent of the vote last year.

Six of this year’s first timers are legitimately huge names
Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Craig Biggio, Sammy Sosa, Mike Piazza, Curt Schilling

On the numbers alone, Bonds, Clemens, Biggio and Piazza would surely receive overwhelming support. But because of steroids, Biggio might be the only one with a real chance of induction this year. Sosa and Schilling don’t have the overwhelming resumes of the other four, but there are certainly plenty of people who believe one or both had Hall of Fame careers.

The 18 other first timers range from terrific to somewhat forgetable
Sandy Alomar Jr., David Wells, Kenny Lofton, Shawn Green, Julio Franco, Aaron Sele, Woody Williams, Roberto Hernandez, Jose Mesa, Mike Stanton, Jeff Cirillo, Royce Clayton, Todd Walker, Steve Finley, Reggie Sanders, Rondell White, Jeff Conine, Ryan Klesko

Without digging into the numbers at all, Wells, Lofton and Finley are the ones who standout on this list, but I’m not sure anyone in this group is going to receive considerable support. Maybe I’m overlooking something – Wells does have a lot of wins, and Lofton was awfully good – but if Bernie Williams got less than 10 percent of the vote last year, I’m not sure any of these guys will make a serious splash.

Associated Press photo

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166 Responses to “PEDs come front and center on HOF ballot”

  1. jacksquat November 28th, 2012 at 10:07 pm

    My argument earlier stands. If you remove the for sure/extremely likely ped users in the comparison, Bernie Williams is much closer to a Hall of Famer, if not in.

  2. RadioKev November 28th, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    Not that I’m a fan of Curt Schilling, but when you look at his ERA+ season by season, how is he not a hall of famer?

  3. Ys Guy November 28th, 2012 at 10:12 pm

    i’m looking forward to long island product craig biggio getting into the hall b/c i see mike sheppard, his seton hall manager regularly at work here in south orange.

  4. blake November 28th, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    RadioKev says:
    November 28, 2012 at 10:10 pm
    Not that I’m a fan of Curt Schilling, but when you look at his ERA+ season by season, how is he not a hall of famer?

    Best K/BB ratio ever

  5. Barry November 28th, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    Chad–

    You are mistaken. The known PED users are just that. They cheated their teammates. Their Colleagues. The thought that Bernie is close or really there except for the users in competition says quite a lot. Notice clearly the diminished home run numbers. Then, compare current stats to say 1957 and draw a reasonable conclusion. Just because someone beat the rap legally doesn’t mean they should be honored. We all want this era past. Then put it in the past by using some judgement.

  6. Ys Guy November 28th, 2012 at 10:15 pm

    bernie williams was my favorite baseball player bar none.

    bernie’s not a hall of famer.

  7. blake November 28th, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    “If you think that is a cowardly way out, I can’t argue with you. But it beats stabbing around in the dark and hoping to be right.”

    No….it’s the only way that makes sense.

  8. The Return of Stoneburner November 28th, 2012 at 10:18 pm

    Best K/BB ratio ever

    ******

    season or career?

  9. RadioKev November 28th, 2012 at 10:18 pm

    Blake,

    I dunno. Tommy Bond takes issue with that.

    http://www.baseball-reference......to01.shtml

  10. jacksquat November 28th, 2012 at 10:20 pm

    9:14pm: The Pirates originally offered Martin a two-year contract according to George A. King III of The New York Post, but they’ve since increased the offer to three years and upwards of $22MM. Meanwhile, Rob Biertempfel of The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reports the Pirates never made an offer as high as $25MM.

    3:08pm: Martin sees potential in the Pirates and has a favorable opinion of manager Clint Hurdle, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reports (all Twitter links). One executive believes the dynamic between the Pirates and Yankees would get interesting if the Pirates offered Martin a three-year, $24MM contract. Other teams remain in the mix on Martin.

    Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#K2d0dFBpIFXjLW8Y.99

  11. RadioKev November 28th, 2012 at 10:20 pm

    I think he also struck out Abe Lincoln.

  12. blake November 28th, 2012 at 10:22 pm

    Ok best K/BB ratio for someone who played after they stopped using rocks for balls

  13. jacksquat November 28th, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    So it appears it will take at least a 3/22ish offer for the Yankees to get Martin. They may do that since that’s about what they offered during this season.

  14. Ys Guy November 28th, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    let me throw this out there: bernie williams, jorge posada, paul oniell, don mattingly, andy pettitte, mariano rivera…

    how many of these guys used steroids?

    (don’t even try to tell me none). im gonna say 3.

  15. RadioKev November 28th, 2012 at 10:25 pm

    Via Wikipedia:

    “In the Irish Baseball League, the annual award for the best pitcher is named ‘The ‘Tommy Bond’ Best Pitcher Award.”

    Apparently he’s buried here in Boston. I should go pay my respects.

  16. blake November 28th, 2012 at 10:25 pm

    “season or career?”

    Career but he technically is 2nd behind Mr. bond…..who played when the earth was still cooling

  17. Barry November 28th, 2012 at 10:27 pm

    Election to the Hall of fame is just that. Whatever the outcome, is what makes sense. You can vote your heart, your special interests, or what you know to be right. The sense of it is left entirely to the electorate. I hope the majority is not part of the everything is relative crowd.

  18. blake November 28th, 2012 at 10:34 pm

    I hope Tim Raines gets in this year….he should

  19. Shame Spencer November 28th, 2012 at 10:50 pm

    Ys Guy November 28th, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    let me throw this out there: bernie williams, jorge posada, paul oniell, don mattingly, andy pettitte, mariano rivera…

    how many of these guys used steroids?

    (don’t even try to tell me none). im gonna say 3.

    ————————–

    No Jeter on that list?

  20. blake November 28th, 2012 at 10:54 pm

    On clubhouse confidential tonight they had the top 5 smallest differentials in OPS between facing “good pitchers ” vs average pitchers”…..basically who’s numbers stayed the most consistent when facing the best pitching ……guess what a yankee was #3 on the list?

  21. Barry November 28th, 2012 at 11:05 pm

    …And the answers are?

  22. blake November 28th, 2012 at 11:05 pm

    Derek Jeter of course

  23. Barry November 28th, 2012 at 11:27 pm

    The stars are in their courses and all is…right with the world.

  24. UnKnown November 28th, 2012 at 11:35 pm

    Trixie – You can save your diatribes about me. Nobody cares.

    Go back to doing what you do best and that is disappearing during the off-season. This place is actually a very good read when you do so. Everyone knows that anything about baseball outside of “Rah Rah Sis Boom Bah” is way above and beyond you anyways.

  25. raymagnetic November 28th, 2012 at 11:40 pm

    Call me crazy but I don’t think taking steroids is cheating.

  26. austinmac November 28th, 2012 at 11:51 pm

    Ray,

    You, sir, are crazy. Well, you asked.

    Actually, it is more surprising when players didn’t do steroids in that environment than players did. This is their life. They see other guys doing it and succeeding. Tough for me to moralize when I haven’t been there.

  27. Jerkface November 28th, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    Baseball is not played by players of identical physiology, and the physical health of the participants is not really the point of the game. The rules of the game are the point, so steroids are not cheating. Anymore than cortisone shots, tommy john surgery, advances in sports training or medicine, would be cheating.

  28. jacksquat November 29th, 2012 at 12:01 am

    JF, everything you listed is to repair someone when they are injured, not to take them beyond their natural abilities.

    And against the rules = cheating, period. That’s why there are penalties.

  29. trisha - true pinstriped blue November 29th, 2012 at 12:26 am

    “And against the rules = cheating, period. That’s why there are penalties.”

    Hear hear.

    And I don’t consider voting against Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens as “stabbing in the dark” any more than I consider OJ Simpson’s acquittal as anything less than a serious miscarriage of justice.

    I do consider blindly following jury outcomes that are contrary to the evidence (see Simpson, Bonds, Clemens) willingly burying one’s head in the sand, as well as abdication of some kind of ethical responsibility.

    I was very heartened to hear the members of the press who said they intended to vote agaist Clemens despite the jury verdict. They sat through the entire trial so DID get to see and hear all of the evidence – even the evidence the jury was not allowed to see or hear.

    (pre-emptory strike against austin, who will once again talk about the jury knowing the evidence better than I…)

  30. trisha - true pinstriped blue November 29th, 2012 at 12:29 am

    “Everyone knows that anything about baseball outside of “Rah Rah Sis Boom Bah” is way above and beyond you anyways.”

    “Anyways” mme. Gerard?

    :lol:

  31. Jerkface November 29th, 2012 at 12:33 am

    everything you listed is to repair someone when they are injured, not to take them beyond their natural abilities.

    If they broke in the practice of their art, repair is taking them beyond their natural capacities. Especially something like cortisone which is a steroid used to allow players the strength to play with injured parts. Training regimens, supplements, and what not are also not repair. Humanity has always been looking to move beyond the natural. Modern athletics is built on it. New machines, targeted muscle groups, more & more understanding and refinement.

    Steroids are against major league baseball’s rules, and only recently, but they are not against the rules of the game of baseball.

  32. Jerkface November 29th, 2012 at 12:34 am

    There will always be unfairness in the sport. People without access to top training facilities will be passed by, there is never a level playing field. It makes me laugh when people get so up in arms about players just trying to get to their physical peak to perform a physical activity.

  33. UnKnown November 29th, 2012 at 1:09 am

    The guy I am most interested in is Black Jack Morris. I got a buddy who hangs with him a lot and from what I hear, Jack seems like a really cool down to earth guy.

    That will be the first thing I will be watching for on Jan. 9th, anyways.

  34. Pat M. November 29th, 2012 at 1:56 am

    Today reminded me just how special this ” Community Baseball blog ” once was and on occasions flashes moments in justifying that image……To see Doreen, upstate Kate, Maine Yankee, SOS, Ray , plus so many more made the clouds of today a little brighter…..Tricia, what you had to say frm the heart stayed with me all day, as you spoke for the many here……I have no way to reach Doc Joe or Mel ( m),,,,,,Funny thing is that the pool service ladies always tell me to pass on a warm friendly So Cali hello to this Greenberet7 dude when they visit on Thursday………Tricia, you’re an Angel by the way !!!!! Wonderful reflections about our friend was shared by many, yet such silence by few……..Wisdom and keen insight tend to get overlooked due to personality indifferences………………So goodnight all and a very Good Morning to Doreen and the Breakfast Club !!!! Just seemed cool to type that out once again…….Man , this was one hellava blog at one time…….It was the best !!!!!

  35. PacoDooley November 29th, 2012 at 5:30 am

    I agree with the sentiment – love Bernie, but he is not a legit candidate.

    I vote for Edgar Martinez, Craig Biggio and Curt Shilling.

    Martinez is clearly a Hall of Famer in my view – best DH in the history of the game (with Ortiz catching up I suppose). If it is going to be a legit position that the league employs people for, then it must be a legit position for the HoF. Martinez was amazing.

    Shilling was very good before he was great. But he had to pitch in the steriods era and so his apparent cleanliness and success in a cesspool of cheaters needs to be taken into account.

  36. PacoDooley November 29th, 2012 at 5:32 am

    Oh, and as for Martinez, keep this in mind if you don’t think he is a Hall of Fame worthy player:

    MLB named the Outstanding Designated Hitter Award after him.

    He is one of only five players to have MLB awards named after them. The others? Cy Young, Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente , and Ted Williams. Good company to be in.

  37. MaineYankee November 29th, 2012 at 6:30 am

    Pat M

    I miss your goodnight and goodmorning as well.

  38. MaineYankee November 29th, 2012 at 6:45 am

    upstate kate

    If you are here this am, it looks like your dog was having a bad hair day in that pic. :lol:

    MTU

    From the look on your brown dogs face it seems like he wishes you’d take a hike. :D:

  39. MG November 29th, 2012 at 6:47 am

    I happened to check the blog last night and read all the comments about GB7′s passing.

    My condolences to his family.

    Although he and I were probably at almost opposite ends of the spectrum politically (at least about certain things and we certainly never addressed it on the blog) we shared a love of baseball that lasted both of us a lifetime.

    There is no timetable for anyone’s health and we must treat each day as a special gift. I have a good friend in her 40′s, in great shape, who has suffered two TIA’s in the past week, you just never know when things will happen.

    GB7 brought a unique respective to this blog, a combination of the past, present and the future, it is already being missed but each of us was privileged to share this time with him, he would have been a great person to know in the real world.

  40. blake November 29th, 2012 at 7:14 am

    Good morning all … Well said MG

  41. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:25 am

    Morning Maine.

    I finally got Kate to step up to the plate.

    It only took several years.

    Speaking of our departed friend. He used to call them “snake food”, and it was he who coined the term “The Mops”.

    That tradition will continue in his honor. On this blog they will always be known not as dogs but “Mops”.

    All I can tell you is they are even cuter in real life.

  42. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:26 am

    Greetings Blake.

  43. blake November 29th, 2012 at 7:27 am

    Hola MTU ,

    I wish I could say I won the powerball and had you a bonus check in the mail…..but sadly i did not :(

  44. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:32 am

    Blake-

    I’m a simple person, or maybe just a simpleton, so a good bottle of shine would do real well.

    You should give that money to someone who really needs it and is worthy.

    Maybe team up with Jeter and buy the Yanks.

    ;)

  45. MaineYankee November 29th, 2012 at 7:33 am

    MTU

    I shouldn’t tell you this but my wife thought your mops are cute.

    We’ve been without a dog for about 4 yrs and my wife is getting a strong desire to get one.

    We had a Dalmation and would like another one but the price is prohibitive.

  46. MaineYankee November 29th, 2012 at 7:35 am

    MTU

    You should give that money to someone who really needs it and is worthy

    ——————————————————————————————-

    In case you can’t see me I have my hand raised.

  47. blake November 29th, 2012 at 7:37 am

    Id have to win 2 or 3 power balls to be able to save them from Hal

  48. upstate kate November 29th, 2012 at 7:39 am

    Good morning!
    Checking in here yesterday made me realize how much I miss some good lohud friends. I will try to peek in now and then.

    Blake, putting on your Brave fan hat, do you like the BJ Upton deal? I am guessing yes.

  49. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:39 am

    Maine-

    Shih Tzu’s are incredibly cute and cuddly. Mrs. Maine would love one, or two.

    Dogs are superior to people of course so I understand the desire.

    As far as the money goes. That’s between you and Blake. After he wins Powerball.

    ;)

  50. blake November 29th, 2012 at 7:39 am

    If I’m the braves then Im trading for the younger Upton now even if I had to include Simmons…..I like Simmons and SSs are difficult to find….but addin J Upton to what they already have would just make their offense insane…..and with the pitching and pen they have you could stand to have a glove man at SS…..Nick Ahmed is a pretty good SS prospect they have also

  51. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:40 am

    Kate-

    Please do. We missed you too !

    :)

  52. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:43 am

    I don’t think Upton-squared would be a good combo.

    Texas has the best shot at Upton. They can get him if they want him.

    They have the chips.

  53. tomingeorgia November 29th, 2012 at 7:43 am

    Morning, everybody!

    No powerball joy here, either.

  54. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:45 am

    Greetings Mr. Tom.

  55. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:48 am

    I always said it’s better to be lucky than good.

    ;)

  56. blake November 29th, 2012 at 7:50 am

    “Blake, putting on your Brave fan hat, do you like the BJ Upton deal? I am guessing yes.”

    I think they over paid…. But I think it’s a good fit and i think they are getting Upton at a good time when he is starting to put it together a bit….think the braves clubhouse will help him…..

  57. austinmac November 29th, 2012 at 7:52 am

    If the Yankees don’t sign Martin, I see no indication they would be interested in Pierzynski. I expect it would be a combination of the guys already on the roster. That is a clear lessening of the team.

    At some point, doesn’t the team have to try to improve? I suppose not.

    As I have been saying, teams like the Pirates have more money they are willing to spend.

    RAB has an article on declining attendance. It is real, but you haven’t seen anything yet.

  58. blake November 29th, 2012 at 7:53 am

    “Texas has the best shot at Upton. They can get him if they want him.”

    So can the braves…. The Rangers tried to trade for Simmons to trade for Upton….the braves could do it themselves if they wanted

  59. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:53 am

    Changing gears a little.

    So who is Cashman gonna trade for now that the pitching is set ?

    An Of’er. Catcher. 3B.

    No one ?

  60. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:54 am

    Blake-

    I think either of Texas’s SS are better.

  61. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:57 am

    Let’s get Santana and Choo from the Indians.

    :)

  62. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 7:58 am

    Cashman better not trade for Garza.

  63. AAA November 29th, 2012 at 7:58 am

    So who is Cashman gonna trade for now that the pitching is set ?

    An Of’er. Catcher. 3B.

    No one ?

    ==========================

    I’ll go with nobody.

    Think he’ll look to compliment the heavily left handed outfield with a right handed bat or two. Hairston and maybe another of that ilk.

  64. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:00 am

    AAA-

    Not the response I was looking for but thanks for the opinion nevertheless.

    No offense but I hope you’re dead wrong.

    :)

  65. blake November 29th, 2012 at 8:01 am

    I wouldn’t move Andrus for Upton…, Kinsler has said he’s play outfield….. Id play Profar at 2 b , keep Andrus , and put Kinsler in the OF

  66. blake November 29th, 2012 at 8:02 am

    I think either of Texas’s SS are better.”

    Yea but they don’t want to trade them

  67. blake November 29th, 2012 at 8:03 am

    MTU says:
    November 29, 2012 at 7:58 am
    Cashman better not trade for Garza.

    I think we are probably safe on that now after Kuroda signed…..but it is Cashman so you never know

  68. blake November 29th, 2012 at 8:04 am

    “Think he’ll look to compliment the heavily left handed outfield with a right handed bat or two. Hairston and maybe another of that ilk.”

    Stop being so realistic….that’s no fun at all ;)

  69. RadioKev November 29th, 2012 at 8:05 am

    blake November 28th, 2012 at 10:54 pm
    On clubhouse confidential tonight they had the top 5 smallest differentials in OPS between facing “good pitchers ” vs average pitchers”…..basically who’s numbers stayed the most consistent when facing the best pitching ……guess what a yankee was #3 on the list?
    ———–

    Who are the other guys?

  70. blake November 29th, 2012 at 8:07 am

    “Who are the other guys?”

    I was tryin to remember who else was on there…..they were mostly contact

  71. austinmac November 29th, 2012 at 8:08 am

    MTU,

    I’m afraid the winter meetings will be exceedingly uneventful in the Yankee world. One year contract limits make almost all possibly available players not on their radar.

    I hope I’m wrong and can come on the board an admit to being so. But, looking at the Hal budget, current contracts and all Yankee brass statements, it looks pretty gloomy. Once Hal said he is a numbers guy first, we were, to use a French term “screwed”.

  72. RadioKev November 29th, 2012 at 8:10 am

    blake November 29th, 2012 at 8:07 am
    “Who are the other guys?”

    I was tryin to remember who else was on there…..they were mostly contact
    ————

    That’s what I figured. Interesting way to look at it, but I suppose it only matters if you have a good OPS to begin with.

  73. blake November 29th, 2012 at 8:18 am

    “That’s what I figured. Interesting way to look at it, but I suppose it only matters if you have a good OPS to begin with.”

    That’s true….it doesn’t really measure as much who is good but merely who remains the most consistent against all pitchers……..obviously the guys so make a lot of contact are gonna probably do better there…..

    Granderson and Hamilton were actually on the biggest gap list for last year which is no real surprise

  74. blake November 29th, 2012 at 8:18 am

    I think Cashman will try to trade for a bat….I don’t know if he will be able to though …..

  75. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:23 am

    This is in memory of my friend GB. A short tribute in photos.

    https://picasaweb.google.com/109721757058432487394/Nov292012?authkey=Gv1sRgCNzM_I6mjd6DuQE#

    Travel well Soldier. I’ll see you on the other side.

  76. disco stu November 29th, 2012 at 8:26 am

    “RAB has an article on declining attendance. It is real, but you haven’t seen anything yet.”

    I have not read the article, but I would assume their arguement does not just stem from the state of the Yankees … I mean, the team has had back to back seasons of best record in AL … so its not as if the fans are being subjected to a team that isnt winning.

    The stadium is an absolute bore … there is no energy in that place. Its way to big, overpriced, lacking in any of the heart and charm of the real YS from across the street that is now a distant memory.

    But more importantly, the economy is horrible … too many people are still out of work or underpaid. Dropping a few hundred bucks to take your family to a ballgame is not worth the expense these days when times are tough and that money can be used for more important things.

    That is what is “real”.

  77. Yankee Trader November 29th, 2012 at 8:26 am

    Kevin-
    Derek Jeter????

  78. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:38 am

    Blake-

    IMO if Cashman wants to deal he can get what he wants.

  79. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:40 am

    But it’s also possible that Cashman will hoard prospects.

    :(

  80. blake November 29th, 2012 at 8:40 am

    “Blake-

    IMO if Cashman wants to deal he can get what he wants.”

    I don’t think he can get anything he wants….they just don’t have the prospects close to the big leagues …..this time next year they might be in a lot better position trade wise

  81. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:40 am

    And players who should be made available in trade.

    :(

  82. blake November 29th, 2012 at 8:42 am

    MTU says:
    November 29, 2012 at 8:40 am
    And players who should be made available in trade.

    Everybody pretty much in the right deal…..

  83. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:44 am

    Blake-

    I disagree. I did not mean anything he wants but surely what he needs.

    He has more than enough chips to accomplish that IMO.

    They do not all have to be MiLB guys, and they do not all have to be at the AAA to have worth or appeal.

    Quality has value regardless of the level.

    Not every team needs or even wants MLB-ready talent although Cashman can offer some of that as well.

  84. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:45 am

    Blake-

    Not everyone but close.

    ;)

  85. Yankee Trader November 29th, 2012 at 8:46 am

    MTU-

    Good morning. I don’t think Cashman can get what he wants unless teams want low level “chips” or take difficult to replace cost controlled players like DRob. Now that Pettitte is getting 12M plus and Rivera likely to get slightly moree, the Yankee budget will likely either overpay for Martin or let the Pirates have him and bottom feed for non-tenders and the like for catcher and RF and resign vets like Ibanez and Ichiro for one last group of veterans swan song.

  86. blake November 29th, 2012 at 8:46 am

    MTU,

    Maybe but he may have to get pretty creative nd be pretty bold…..he’s gonna have to trade off the big league roster to make a big deal ImO

  87. austinmac November 29th, 2012 at 8:47 am

    Stu,

    They did talk about the economy etc. in the article. No doubt they are a factor, but their is decreasing interest in the team, in my opinion. If they decline as a team, I believe the drop off in attendance and TV ratings will sharply decline as well.

    When the team stresses spending limits to its fans rather than their all ours desire to win, I don’t see how that cannot decrease fan optimism and willingness to spend that hard earned money. Further, it could impact corporate purchases, but that is beyond my ken.

  88. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:47 am

    Blake-

    That could be part of it.

    ;)

  89. Yankee Trader November 29th, 2012 at 8:49 am

    The Royals are looking to free up salary by trading Chen and/or Hochevar. Can the Yankees afford Alex Gordon and Hochevar for Phil Hughes?

  90. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:50 am

    YT-

    The Yankees have plenty of relief talent. Now and on the way.

    Cashman has plenty to offer.

    Question is, will he ?

    ;)

  91. AAA November 29th, 2012 at 8:51 am

    Quality has value regardless of the level.

    ==================

    I think your overstating the quality, MTU. There’s no package of AAA guys and Nova/Phelps that gets you even a sniff of a young, solid everyday bat. I know you’re a big Alex Gordon guy. There’s no getting a guy like that unless Cashman willing to go a lot further. #4/5 starters won’t do it. You’d be talking 2 of the Yankees Big 4 to get something like that done and/or getting another team involved with a reasonably priced #2 type starter.

  92. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:53 am

    AAA-

    So ?

    Do we need to keep them all ?

    Isn’t that what trading is all about ?

    ;)

  93. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:54 am

    And no, I don’t think I’m oversating the quality of some of our guys.

  94. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:55 am

    sp: overstating

  95. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 8:56 am

    And I’m fine w involving a 3rd team if that gets us what we need.

    :)

  96. Yankee Trader November 29th, 2012 at 8:59 am

    Awaiting the new thread.

    Blake-

    Counting on you for up to date reporting from Nashville starting Sunday night! :)

  97. Yankee Trader November 29th, 2012 at 9:01 am

    BTW-

    No Swisher, Ibanez, Chavez, Jones and Martin as of now. How many homers are you in need of replacing from those guys-close to 100?

  98. Yankee Trader November 29th, 2012 at 9:02 am

    New Post—->

  99. AAA November 29th, 2012 at 9:02 am

    And no, I don’t think I’m oversating the quality of some of our guys.

    ==========================

    We’ll agree to disagree there. Nova/Phelps and excess relief pitching don’t get the Yankees anything dramatically better than they can find on the FA market. Same for AA/AAA guys like Adams. Again, I’m talking about a Gordon type player. Upton, Headley, etc. That’s high level. That would be tough for the Yankees to do without involving another team and parting with 2 Top 4 prospects.

  100. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 9:03 am

    I’m pretty much a get-any-young-what-we-need guy.

    It could be a Gordon. An Upton. A Stanton.

    We have areas of strength, and areas of weakness and need.

    So do all the other teams.

    Me. I try my best to work the NL side because what we trade away won’t come back to haunt us as easily.

  101. MTU November 29th, 2012 at 9:07 am

    AAA-

    Perhaps you missed it but I said I’d be willing to consider parting w some of those very prospects.

    So yeah, I guess we agree to disagree about what we can get done if we wish.

    IMO there is no way we should try to hold onto all of Williams, Austin,
    Heathcott, and Flores.

    They’re all good but we don’t need 4 of them, and several are like to bust out anyway.

    Trade them while they still have shine.

  102. longtimefan November 29th, 2012 at 9:45 am

    RE: Cheaters and the HOF. IMO, once a so called “known” cheater makes it into the hall it opens up the doors for the others. personally I feel this dis-repects the other players that put together legitmate careers to make it into the hall based on their merits. Clemens, Bonds, Palmiero, Sosa, McGuire et al may not have been convicted of cheating but don’t forget OJ was acquitted of murder but everyone pretty much knows he did the deed. Sad day for baseball when cheaters are given a free pass into the hall.

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