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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Pinch hitting: David Curtiss

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 15, 2013 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Batting second in our Pinch Hitters series is David Curtiss, a corporate attorney living in Manhattan but born and raised in Hoboken. David said he’s “reasonably sure” he’s been to a Yankees game every season since 1981 (except 2010, when he had an excuse; he was living in Singapore). “During college I would go to weeknight playoff games, drive back to Gettysburg College for class, and then back to the Bronx for the next night’s game,” David wrote. He went to the last game at old Yankee Stadium and the first game at new Yankee Stadium.

For his post, David was thinking a little about old and new. He wondered, how might this winter be different if last winter had been different?

This winter, one question kept springing to my mind: What if last year’s big deal never happened?

Say what you want about the Montero/Pineda trade (and I still think it was the right move at the time), the Yankees ended up subtracting from the roster without adding a contributing piece, and that hole remains. While a productive Michael Pineda might further bolster an already strong pitching staff, Jesus Montero could catch, DH or anchor a trade to fill the outfield.

So, how would this offseason look different with Montero in pinstripes and Pineda out west?

1) Catcher
I still believe Cashman traded Montero because the Yankees viewed him as a bat without a position. That being said, Montero would be an impact bat who could probably catch 40-50 games and let Cervelli/Stewart fight over the rest. Including Montero in the catching mix would probably make Yankees fans a lot more comfortable than the current roster, but I believe his future is probably at DH. Montero on this roster still leaves 100-120 games for Cervelli/Stewart (and probably leaves both of them on the major league roster).

2) DH/corner infield
If Montero catches 40-50 games, he’d probably see another 90-100 at DH. I think on this roster Montero mostly the same role as Kevin Youkilis. Clearly, Montero’s not playing third, so why do I even bring up Youkilis? First, while A-Rod’s injury opened up third for half the season, the whole calculus of the Youkilis signing changes if Montero is the primary DH after the All-Star break. On the current roster, Youkilis plays third until A-Rod comes back and then is the frontrunner to DH the rest of the year (and give Tex and A-Rod an occasional rest). I think Cashman’s looking at the first-half production of Nunez/Youkilis/Diaz/Canzler/whoever as a three-month competition to see if he needs to acquire a DH at the trade deadline. Youkilis’ $12 million contract makes little sense if he only has an obvious role for half the year. Since I don’t view Montero as a catcher, it’s unlikely Youkilis and Montero both fit on the roster. However, if Montero headlines a trade package for an outfielder, Youkilis makes sense again.

3) …or Justin Upton?
Now let’s open Pandora’s box. Could Montero headline a package to bring back an impact outfield bat (can you say Justin Upton)? According to MLBTradeRumors, Arizona was set to receive Nick Franklin, Charlie Furbush, Stephen Pryor and Taijuan Walker from Seattle before Upton vetoed the deal. According to the 2012 Baseball America top 100 prospects list, Montero was No. 6. While a down year at the Grand Canyon (er, I mean Safeco Field) may have lowered his stock a bit, he is still probably better piece than Walker, being the highest rated prospect in the deal (#20 on the 2012 BA list). MLBTR notes that Walker had a down year at Double-A, likely hurting his stock a little, though he’s still well-regarded. Franklin is a shortstop who rated #53 on the 2011 BA list, but fell off the list entirely in 2012, even before hitting for a paltry .725 OPS for AAA Tacoma in the otherwise offense-happy Pacific Coast League last year. Furbush and Pryor each had nice years out of the M’s bullpen last year, but are pretty similar to Clay Rapada and Cody Eppley, neither of whom has huge trade value. If you value Montero a bit higher than Walker, the Yankees could probably deal a package including Montero, one of Rapada or Eppley, and a reclamation project out of the middle of the farm system for Upton. That sounds like a deal I would make in a heartbeat.

Associated Press photo

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127 Responses to “Pinch hitting: David Curtiss”

  1. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 9:04 am

    “Does anyone aside from me have any doubts about the ability of the Yankees to detect and deal with injuries to their young Pitchers ?”

    mtu-

    you mean that when alex’s hip doctor looked at wang (when he was sent down for rehab) and said “hey, something looks funny to me with wang’s hip”.

    you mean that kind of accidental diagnosis of problems.

    all the injuries to hughes and joba and kennedy. and pineda and betances and banuelos

    the yankees just have bad luck. it’s like BABIP.

    it’s called BOPFOPS

    body parts falling off per start

  2. coney1 January 15th, 2013 at 9:05 am

    Shame Spencer January 15th, 2013 at 8:59 am

    I tried to catch the YES special twice last night but failed miserably.. was there anything else in there that would be considered newsworthy besides Sherman reporting the Yanks were in on Morse?

    —-

    No. They spent five minutes on the Yankees RH bat, talking small names like Scott Hairston and the rest of the show on a bunch of nonsense that has just about nothing to do with the 2013 Yankees.

  3. blake January 15th, 2013 at 9:08 am

    Montero would certainly have given them more trade options….however directly with Arizona might have been tricky as they already have their own Montero at Catcher and are in a league with no DH….perhaps the Dbacks would have considered making him a 1B…..Montero would have made it easier to trade though being a big league ready bat

  4. blake January 15th, 2013 at 9:09 am

    “Cashman, use some ingenuity and make a three way deal for Upton work”

    Have to think he’s tried….the Yanks woukd have to send a package to Seattle that would satisfy them to send the package to the Dbacks they did before….

  5. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2013 at 9:09 am

    The Diamondbacks already have Montero (Miguel) and there is no DH.

  6. Shame Spencer January 15th, 2013 at 9:11 am

    Montero on this roster still leaves 100-120 games for Cervelli/Stewart (and probably leaves both of them on the major league roster).

    —————

    I dunno about this.. I think they would have went with Romine and dropped either Cervelli or Stewart. It would take pressure off Romine, you could have folded him in even more slowly…

    Montero vs. Joba as a starter/reliever debate vs. Cliff Lee…… It’s hard to decide which has been more epic.

    Thanks coney – It looked like a lot of HOF talk and I wasn’t even in the mood. Glad I missed nothing.

  7. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 9:16 am

    Randy-

    I believe you and I have discussed this one in the past.

    Are the the Yankees using Science to it’s fullest extent help them build a better product ?

    For example, have they incorporated baseline strength testing for their Pitchers ?

    Do they have a “proactive” rather than a merely a “reactive” injury prevention program in place ?

    Etc.

  8. Shame Spencer January 15th, 2013 at 9:17 am

    I can’t project much from it, obviously, but I do remember one particular at bat Montero had against Lester that really impressed me.. Hopefully he has a great career and so does Pineda so it lessens the sting. I am very much looking forward to seeing what we get from him this season.

  9. Shame Spencer January 15th, 2013 at 9:18 am

    @YankeesWFAN

    Every few days I get asked for update on Pineda. Do we need that many updates on guy who won’t pitch in bigs until midseason?

    Right on time..

  10. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 9:21 am

    Shame-

    Not trying to be a Pessimist but I wouldn’t set my expectatioins for Pineda for this season too high.

    The best possible comp for him IMO might be Annibal Sanchez who recovered quite nicely from labrum surgery.

    Trouble is it took him the better part of 2 seasons to regain his full form.

    If Pineda can get back out on a ML mound and just compete and stay healthy the remainder we have done well.

    That would be a good start.

  11. austinmac January 15th, 2013 at 9:28 am

    Has anyone ever linked the Yankees to Upton other than to say they are not involved? Not to my recollection.

    Stealth Cashman? Don’t think so, but I was surprised when he gave Ichiro two years, when they got McGehee and Pearce and when they let Martin go with no replacement. Stealth with him requires money. He has none.

    The next sneaky thing he will do is Juan Rivera and his rapidly declining skillset.

  12. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 9:30 am

    One of the worst things they could do with Pineda IMO is to try to bring him back too soon, or to try to get him to do too much too soon.

    That would only encourage further injury.

    He also needs to stay witin himself and just give his body the time it requires to fully overcome the injury.

    Trying to throw flat out to impress people would not be smart.

    Maybe he refines that 3rd pitch even more. Becomes more of a Pitcher.

    ;)

  13. blake January 15th, 2013 at 9:33 am

    @jimcallisBA: Graham, who is underrated. Campos has higher ceiling but is hurt. @uk1916: better prospect. JR Graham or Jose Campos? #Braves #Yankees

  14. blake January 15th, 2013 at 9:34 am

    “Has anyone ever linked the Yankees to Upton other than to say they are not involved? Not to my recollection.”

    Other than just saying he’d be a great fit ….not really.

  15. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 9:34 am

    I’d gladly trade a few more healthy innings for a few more K’s from Pineda for the time being.

    :)

  16. blake January 15th, 2013 at 9:35 am

    The Yankees carry serious risk of missing the playoffs with this current roster and they have to know that…..Cashman is probably trying to swing a deal for a bat….whether that’ll be good or bad or if he wi be successful I don’t know

  17. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 9:36 am

    Blake-

    Campos “was” hurt. Past tense.

    See I fixed that for them.

    No charge.

    ;)

  18. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 9:38 am

    Mop walk time.

    Later.

  19. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 9:40 am

    david-

    nice piece.

    however, if pineda had won 12 games or more and montero blew out a knee and missed the whole season with his career in doubt the TRADE would be looking a whole lot different.

    however, the probability of that happening was not in the yankees favor when they made the trade. what actually happened was the more likely outcome. the yankees assumed way more risk than they traded away. it blew up in their face.

    of course there would have been better ways to trade montero with less risk if montero didn’t fit cashman’s eye as a yankee. yeah , a young offensive player like upton would be looking nice right now.

    what we didn’t know at the time was hal was likely already putting pressure on cashman to implement the austerity program. cashman with his bias towards PITCHING WINS made a high risk trade under pressure .

    the fact a year after the TRADE it’s still being talked about so much shows it was a tuning point in yankee history. i believe it will be seen as symbolic of the beginning of the downward spiral that seems to be developing. i don’t think pineda will ever be the starter cashman envisioned. he’s a two pitch pitcher still. the change up never had a chance to be further developed.

    the bullpen is where pineda’s future likely lies with a diminished fastball . his velocity came too much from arm action and he was off balance on his follow through. this is not going to change. if cashman really wanted a pitcher for montero, pineda was not the right pitcher.

    but under pressure from hal, looking back, it’s easy to see how cashman choked and pulled the trigger on this trade.

    think the yankees are between a rock and a hard place and they really should change the goal and not try for the playoffs every year. they’re pretty much screwed for the immediate future. it’d be better to take a step back and retool. but not with present management. start fresh and aim for three – four years down the road.

    if they don’t they’re probably looking at an implosion like the red sox had that will force a change in management anyway.

  20. Mike in Harrisburg January 15th, 2013 at 9:42 am

    Nice piece from a fellow Gburg alum!

  21. austinmac January 15th, 2013 at 9:45 am

    For you Gettsburg alums, I just read The Killer Angels. Very good Gettysburg read. You all may have had enough of that though.

  22. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 9:45 am

    “Are the the Yankees using Science to it’s fullest extent help them build a better product ?”

    mtu-

    ricky peterson was just sitting there waiting to be signed by someone. the yankees could have had their science guy if they wanted him. the orioles made a new job description for peterson , director for pitching.

    the orioles took the chance and we see what happened with throw pitching last year.

    cashman says PITCHING WINS yet he seems to know little about it.

  23. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 9:50 am

    blake -

    just curious, would you object if the yankees reset their goals and decided to rebuild rather than compete for a playoff spot every year.

    i think it’d be exciting and refreshing to see a new dynasty being rebuilt from the ground up.

    it would get my attention more than what they are doing right now.

  24. Mike in Harrisburg January 15th, 2013 at 9:54 am

    @austinmac correct, heh

  25. blake January 15th, 2013 at 9:54 am

    “just curious, would you object if the yankees reset their goals and decided to rebuild rather than compete for a playoff spot every year.”

    Depends on how it was done…..personally I think they are the Yankees and could do both if they wanted…..do we want the people in control now doing a total rebuild? They’ve never done it and it could end in disaster

  26. blake January 15th, 2013 at 9:55 am

    “it would get my attention more than what they are doing right now.”

    I don’t like the halfway approach either….

  27. Bronx Jeers January 15th, 2013 at 9:57 am

    I think the Yanks have themselves a pitching guru although he’s currently working in the booth.

    David Cone.

    I recall the day when Pineda’s shoulder finally gave out and he was practically screaming from the booth that something was definitely wrong based on the action of Pineda’s pitches.

  28. blake January 15th, 2013 at 9:59 am

    “I recall the day when Pineda’s shoulder finally gave out and he was practically screaming from the booth that something was definitely wrong based on the action of Pineda’s pitches.”

    It was pretty obvious to everyone except the people continuing to let him pitch

  29. 86w183 January 15th, 2013 at 10:01 am

    The fact a year after the TRADE it’s still being talked about so much shows it was a tuning point in yankee history.

    *************************************************************************

    If there was a Hall of Fame for hyperbole this would unquestionably be inducted.

    Trading Montero a turning point in history? Hardly.

    You could make the argument that the obsession with getting payroll down to $ 189 M in 2014 will end up being a “turning point”, but trading a guy with 69 MLB plate appearances isn’t going to be a turning point even if he turns out to be Miguel Cabrera.

    Personnel mistakes are easy to recover from. A paradigm shift in organizational philosophy that backfires would not be.

  30. Mike Ri January 15th, 2013 at 10:05 am

    Personnel mistakes are easy to recover from. A paradigm shift in organizational philosophy that backfires would not be.

    —–

    Agree

  31. Bronx Jeers January 15th, 2013 at 10:07 am

    It was pretty obvious to everyone except the people continuing to let him pitch

    ————————————————-

    Girardi’s “throw harder or you’re out” edict certainly didn’t help. The thing is is that Cone is probably too smart and opinionated for the likes of Girardi and Cashman.

  32. blake January 15th, 2013 at 10:12 am

    “Girardi’s “throw harder or you’re out” edict certainly didn’t help. The thing is is that Cone is probably too smart and opinionated for the likes of Girardi and Cashman.”

    Yea I don’t think he’d attach himself to one of Hals puppet strings

  33. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 10:14 am

    blake-

    the stairs to one of my business entrances were over thirty years old this past summer and being railroad timbers were pretty much deteriorating. we had been repairing them for the past few years, but they were getting past the point of no return. there were a lot of different ways to go but we opted for high price granite with maine cedar timbers .

    it’s being done this week. we could have done it cheaper but now it’s done right and will be that way for the next 40 years. you see the analogy.

    i’ll be 104 then and will still be pissed about the montero trade :)

  34. blake January 15th, 2013 at 10:21 am

    Randy,

    Good analogy…..but what if you refused to pay for the best and got decided to replace it with astroturfed concrete instead?

  35. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2013 at 10:26 am

    Depends on how it was done…..personally I think they are the Yankees and could do both if they wanted…..
    ////

    This was true coming off the 2009 championship; everything was in place for a low-stress transition to younger players, while the older bats were still viable.

    They fed their fanbase & the media a lot of nonsense about “having to win while developing” being some kind of dive off Mount Etna, but they had the perfect cozy setup to strategically and gradually integrate a young bat and arm without damaging the architecture of winning in October.

    Now, of course, they’ve fulfilled their own ass backward thinking, and now it is a major “risk”, because the foundation is now shaky with age having set in, and there’s little support system for prospects who aren’t close enough to their ETAs – those kids are gone in deals.

    So what you get is Youkilis, from whom they’ll pray for a rebound season to help mitigate the self-imposed demise of the lineup, and rely on the pitching that was very good last year. Good for another token playoff “run”? Even that’s not assured, not with teams like Toronto gaining on them.

  36. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 10:27 am

    “Personnel mistakes are easy to recover from. A paradigm shift in organizational philosophy that backfires would not be.”

    trading montero was symbolic of the paradigm shift.

    that’s precisely the point.

    myself and others felt it intuitively and viscerally at the time.

    it really was the tipping point in the decline that is now obvious to all but the most “positive” posters.

  37. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2013 at 10:29 am

    Personnel mistakes are easy to recover from.
    ///

    Make too many of them and they are not “easy” to recover from. That’s like saying being a bad GM is “easy” to recover from.

  38. PacoDooley January 15th, 2013 at 10:33 am

    Snooze…

    I have really no interest in going back to the Montero trade since we have done it to death. They really need young cost controlled pitching and got one of the best young pitchers in the league for Montero. He turned out to have a bad shoulder, which sucks, but he is probably among the best quality return they could expect for Montero.

    That said, of course it would be nice to have a shiny trade chip in the system. Let’s hope that Pineda learned his lesson about fitness and his shoulder injury was minor enough to be behind him…

  39. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 10:33 am

    The problem was an egregious misreading of the offense. Even last year most were claiming at the beginning of the 2012 season that the offense would be fine in 2012. As one of the few (two or three?) who disagreed, I reiterate that if you are watching Yankee AB’s and are banking on a wonky Alex in the middle of your lineup in 2012 (based on AB’s in 2011 as a preview), then you cannot have thought that trading your best young bat for pitching was a good move. In September when we were hitting the cover off the ball, if you are watching the AB’s you would know that the pitching against us was piss poor and the hitting was mostly a result of over the plate, mistake pitches. You cannot fake bat speed, and the Yankees sorely overrated ours. As for Pineda, again, if you are going to fall in love with an arm based on one half a season, and a velo that bumped up for about the same amount of time, then shame on you for taking such a risk.

  40. blake January 15th, 2013 at 10:34 am

    The Yankees should never really have to place their hopes and prayers on prospects…..they should develop players and make them a big part of their organization…..but they aren’t the Rays or the Royals and they shouldn’t operate like they are.

  41. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2013 at 10:34 am

    - PETE ROSE REALITY SHOW OBSERVATIONS -

    (1) The older Pete gets, the More he looks like Lou Costello.

    (2) At 71, Charlie Hustle will NEVER keep up with that ex-Playmate.

    (3) Ditch the hat, and just embrace the inevitable baldness.

    (4) Pete meshed better with her parents, than he did with her.

    (5) His addressing kids at some kinda baseball clinic was sad. Total disconnect Both ways.

    (6) Contracted for 6 episodes. These 1st 2 were pretty bad.

  42. David in Cal January 15th, 2013 at 10:35 am

    “just curious, would you object if the yankees reset their goals and decided to rebuild rather than compete for a playoff spot every year.”

    Excellent question. IMHO the Yanks’ focus on getting the 2014 payroll below $189 million will have the effect of making 2014 a rebuilding year. I’d rather see them explicitly admit that 2014 will be a rebuilding year, because then they could more intelligently use 2014 to actually rebuild.

  43. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 10:40 am

    “…..but what if you refused to pay for the best and had decided to replace it with astroturfed concrete instead?”

    that would have made it kind of difficult to get $39 for a hand thrown mug .

  44. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2013 at 10:42 am

    Even last year most were claiming at the beginning of the 2012 season that the offense would be fine in 2012. As one of the few (two or three?) who disagreed, I reiterate that if you are watching Yankee AB’s and are banking on a wonky Alex in the middle of your lineup in 2012 (based on AB’s in 2011 as a preview), then you cannot have thought that trading your best young bat for pitching was a good move.
    ///

    Yankeefem – I can’t recall anyone other than you and I who thought the hit the offense would take would rear its head as soon as 2012.

    I also disagreed with the idea that the offense would be “fine” for 2012 but suffer beyond that; I saw the demise showing up immediately, as did you.

  45. ron January 15th, 2013 at 10:47 am

    It is pretty simple,but the yankees blew it,and are about to make the same mistake they made with arod by giving cano an 8 year/200 million dollar contract,or losing him for less than a maximum return.
    All they had to do is trade cano,granderson,hughes,maybe a few lesser prospects for 3-4 high end prospects that you can plug into the lineup in 2013.
    Give me an olt type of 3b for granderson,a 2b,or ss prospect,and a top pitching prospect for cano,and something for hughes.
    Then sign hamilton,melky,ajp.
    Ajp for a year,melky for 2 years,hamilton for 5.All pretty safe contracts.
    What this does is gives us a nasty set of prospects,making our farm system a lot better,and probably more towards the top of the league,gives us a few prospects that can fill holes earlier than our own,and by signing hamilton,melky,ajp,allows us to still compete.

    We lose cano,granderson,hughes,but gain melky,hamilton,ajp,but get 4 top prospects.
    We add 40 million with melky,ajp,hamilton,but drop about 33 million by trading cano,granderson,hughes,and we would not need ichiro,and if we got a ready 3b prospect,we don’t need youk,or can use him at dh.

    In 2017,only arod is left at 27.5 million,aav,but only making 20 million.

  46. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2013 at 10:48 am

    Best AL record in 2012, and in mid- January 2013, you guys are Already shoveling dirt on the body??? I’m not happy about the direction Hal is taking this team either, but there remains a lotta talent on this 2013 Yankee roster. I ain’t ready to call the coroner Before Pitch 1 is thrown.

  47. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 10:49 am

    But Hal said if this year’s team indicates that they aren’t good enough he will open the wallet again in 2014.

    Don’t you believe him ?

    ;)

  48. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 10:50 am

    JAP-

    I’m hiring you and YF as consultants.

    :)

  49. blake January 15th, 2013 at 10:52 am

    “that would have made it kind of difficult to get $39 for a hand thrown mug .”

    Kinda difficult to get 8 bucks or whatever for a beer at the stadium too huh

  50. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 10:54 am

    Randy-

    Peterson might be a good example, or our favorite MM.

    Heck. What about teaching flexibility as much as strength.

    Perhaps they do that.

    I remember one season we had all sorts of hamstring injuries early on.

    I believe they fired that trainer.

    Ichiro stretches before each and every at bat. He’s stayed pretty healthy.

  51. Against All Odds January 15th, 2013 at 10:55 am

    They really need young cost controlled pitching

    ————————

    Weren’t they supposed to be loaded with young cost controlled pitching.

  52. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 10:55 am

    Pruf, I remember. I don’t know how anyone watches Yankee AB’s and thinks we have an elite offense. A couple of others may also have posted as much in ST 2012, but most thought our offense would be fine in 2012. My interest is not so much in “being right;” my concern is that the Yankees who should have the evaluative skills/knowledge to evaluate their team’s offense/AB’s somehow missed the boat on the offense, and that is troubling.

    And I am not burying anyone; however, our conception/general philosophy of what a good offense is, is unfortunately problematic.

  53. jacksquat January 15th, 2013 at 10:55 am

    Hitting will suffer due to age and players leaving at the end of their contract (and not being resigned due to a lower payroll).

    But here is what you self appointed blog seers always ignore: 2014 pitching rotation: CC, Nova, Phelps. You said it would be alright because Banuelos and Betances were on the way. The Yankees had “plenty of pitching depth”.

    Well now we’ll be heading into 2014 with just as much need for pitching as hitting and as of right now no starting pitching help coming from the minors, but at least possibly some position players.

    The false narrative has gone on long enough.

  54. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 10:58 am

    And to qualify elite, yes, I get it that we have one of the “better” offenses in terms of the numbers, making the playoffs but not in terms of quality AB’s. And certainly not in the postseason. I hope that changes. Do the Yankees really believe our offense is multidimensional like it was in 2009? Give me a vintage Bobby Abreu type bat in that 2013 lineup, and I would be much happier.

  55. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 10:59 am

    “Kinda difficult to get 8 bucks or whatever for a beer at the stadium too huh”

    yes, that’s the thinking.

  56. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 11:03 am

    “Kinda difficult to get 8 bucks or whatever for a beer at the stadium too huh”

    Not if it’s a great microbrew brewed here in Utah like “Polygamy Porter”, or “5 Wives”.

    :)

  57. Against All Odds January 15th, 2013 at 11:04 am

    The fact that that’s the projected rotation in 14 shows just how much they have failed at developing their own pitching. When Cashman started this back then it was “grow pitching and buy the bats” They have being growing the pitching since 05/06 and what do they have to show for it. Where is their ace hell where is their number 3 pitcher. type pitcher.

  58. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 11:04 am

    “And I am not burying anyone; however, our conception/general philosophy of what a good offense is, is unfortunately problematic.”

    teixeira- all or nothing swing

    alex – all or nothing swing

    granderson- double all or nothing swing

    cano against lefties- developing all or nothing swing

    there’s something wrong with the approach.

    kevin long has to be looked at.

    he really seems to do nothing to discourage this all out swinging in case you hit something approach.

  59. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:04 am

    “…..Montero would have made it easier to trade though being a big league ready bat”

    Which is what some of us said he should be saved for if he wasn’t going to be kept.

    It was never it about 2012, it was about the potential (but foreseeable) need for offense starting in 2013.

    It’s unfortunate that Cashman (or whoever makes these calls, because it may not be him) couldn’t see that.

  60. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:07 am

    For me it was about 2012. The offense in 2011 had problems in spite of going 5 with Detroit. We should have never lost that series. And I think 2012 with Montero would have been very productive offensively.

    JS, 2014 hasn’t arrived yet. Do you waste 2012 and 2013 based on 2014 by going after an “injury matrix” pitcher for your best trade chip? And how do you know who will or won’t be in our rotation in 2014? If the Yanks lose Hughes it is on them; other pitchers may be ready in 2014. Darvish was there for the taking. Banuelos and Betances aren’t the only pitchers in our system. Marshall may be ready. DePaula may move quickly. I hope he does; however, who knows if Pineda will ever pitch well out of the SP for us. The crystal ball doesn’t predict doom for the SP in 2014.

  61. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2013 at 11:10 am

    MTU January 15th, 2013 at 10:50 am

    JAP-

    I’m hiring you and YF as consultants.

    :)
    ///

    I’ll take Central Jersey region :).

  62. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:11 am

    yf

    I thought they could hold the fort in 2012; TBH, I never thought A-Rod would be so unproductive this past soon, and I thought that Granderson would be much better than he was.. I thought Montero would help, maybe a lot, but I wasn’t counting on major production. I believed that it would more likely be a development year, especially if he was permitted to gain significant on-the-job experience behind the plate.

    On a larger note, I prefer to look at every move made by the teams I root for over a longer time horizon.

  63. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 11:13 am

    JAP-

    You might have to share that one with YF.

    You 2 work it out.

    ;)

  64. Shame Spencer January 15th, 2013 at 11:13 am

    I haven’t gotten to completely catch up (guys, my boss is making me do real work.. what’s up with that?!) but I agree with you MTU. I’d rather them take it as slow as molasses with Pineda this season… I’m just not 100% sure they will. They might need to figure out what/if he’ll contribute in 2014 and it could mean they push him a bit sooner than ready to see what he has.

  65. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:14 am

    MTU, how about we send all our pitchers to James R. Andrews Biomechanics Lab at the American Sports Medicine Institute? :)

  66. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:14 am

    Shame, don’t pretend you were working. I know you were over at the Rock, watching the Devils practice. ;)

  67. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:15 am

    Or are they still practicing in West Orange?

  68. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 11:16 am

    Shame-

    Let’s hope not. These injuries require patience and great care.

    Not only from the Team but from the Player himself.

  69. Jerkface January 15th, 2013 at 11:16 am

    I would have preferred they not trade Montero, but I did say that if they wanted to it should be for a cost controlled position player, or one under a contract that is a good deal.

  70. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:16 am

    “… I’m just not 100% sure they will”

    Why should they? There hasn’t been any known accountability for the “cf” that they have perpetrated. It’s only about now. It’s always about now.

    But yeah, I have been saying for a while that they should expect much from him this season, and that he should spend most of it in the mL even if he is great.

  71. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 11:17 am

    yankeefeminista-

    with your feeling about 2012 yankee offense ,how do you respond to those who say that the yankees led the league in OPS in 2012?

  72. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2013 at 11:17 am

    On a larger note, I prefer to look at every move made by the teams I root for over a longer time horizon.
    ///

    It was a bad move in the short and long term, in that they gambled that the “now” offense (last year’s) wouldn’t miss a step and the pitching – which turned out to be stellar without Pineda – would provide the a great differential while the offense was just taken for granted.

    They apparently did not see the signs from 2011 postseason.
    ///

    YF – I think GLove also was concerned about 2012 lineup, now that I think of it.

  73. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:17 am

    *shouldn’t expect*

  74. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:18 am

    Rich, I was concerned about Alex’s production; that was the main reason I wanted another bat in the middle. And I will say that I still think barring hip injury at end there, that Alex generally has better plate discipline/situational AB’s than most, when healthy. I also think Montero would have been on a learning curve, but watching him so closely in 2012 at the Stadium, I really feel that he would have been productive in that lineup, in a park tailor-made for him, and with the comfort level of having gotten his initiation in Sept. 2011. Still think he would have given us a lot.

  75. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:19 am

    “It was a bad move in the short and long term…”

    Trading a talented young hitter for a pitcher under 26 is a very, very risky strategy that doesn’t speak well about the thought process of the decision-maker.

  76. G. Love January 15th, 2013 at 11:19 am

    J.AP,

    I was tremendously down on this offense last year. That’s why I’m one of the ring leaders of negative nancies who so pollute the discussion here.

    This team hasn’t been able to hit decent pitching since 2009. I’ve never seen a lineup of so many guys who look like they’ve never seen a breaking ball in my life. It’s like the pitcher is conjuring voodoo up there.

    The good thing, for me, is Martin & Swisher are gone. They were two of the biggest culprits against pitchers who didn’t throw it straight over the plate and had no approach up there other than grip it and rip it.

    The bad thing for me is we’ve replaced them with no one. I actually see Ichiro as an upgrade to Swisher over the course of a full season, but relying on Gardner with no other strong OF on the roster is folly. That’s where I know Hal is lying through his teeth that he believes this is a better group and they’ve made major improvements.

    The team needs bats. Not hairy monsters. They need sophisticated hitters with approaches at the plate who don’t wet themselves at the sight of a breaking pitch low & away.

  77. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 11:19 am

    YF-

    Sounds good. Would provide an excellent baseline and risk assessment.

    I also recommend OS conditioning at places like API.

    And Ichiro as stretching instructor and director of Yoga.

    :)

  78. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:19 am

    *watching him in 2011* should read (and obviously previously beginning in AA)

  79. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 11:20 am

    … and were second in runs scored

  80. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2013 at 11:20 am

    Jerkface January 15th, 2013 at 11:16 am

    I would have preferred they not trade Montero, but I did say that if they wanted to it should be for a cost controlled position player, or one under a contract that is a good deal.
    ///

    Sure, and this seems obvious. Take nothing for granted, I guess…

  81. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:21 am

    MTU, yes and yes. I really think Hughes could benefit from yoga to lengthen his muscles, stride, increase leg drive/core power.

  82. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:23 am

    “This team hasn’t been able to hit decent pitching since 2009.” Glove, yep. Seeing that lineup live vs. Texas in that 2010 playoff series was hard to take. Forgetting bat speed, we were station to station on the base paths, and Texas was flying. It was problematic and embarrassing.

    As for hitting breaking balls. Two words: Melky Cabrera. Why, Cash?

  83. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 11:23 am

    YF-

    Yeah but that’s sissy stuff isn’t it ?

    :)

  84. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2013 at 11:23 am

    Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:19 am

    “It was a bad move in the short and long term…”

    Trading a talented young hitter for a pitcher under 26 is a very, very risky strategy that doesn’t speak well about the thought process of the decision-maker.
    ///

    Rich, I believe you raised this first and were the most specifically outspoken in articulating the inherent risk of pitching under the age of 26.

  85. Ys Guy January 15th, 2013 at 11:24 am

    Ichiro spoke at a workout in Kobe Japan today. This is from YES:

    ”Signing with the Yankees has given me a new sense of determination,” the 39-year-old outfielder said Tuesday after a workout in Kobe. ”This is a unique team, a team that can have a player like Alex Rodriguez as a pinch hitter is special and to be part of that is exciting.”

    Is YES trying to tell us something about alex or do they just not read what they print to check the translation?

  86. blake January 15th, 2013 at 11:24 am

    @JimBowdenESPNxm: Scott Hairston expected to make a decision this week

  87. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:24 am

    JF, yep, and many said the same. Rich, Blake, et al… And Cash himself acknowledged the risk, but took it anyway.

  88. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:25 am

    “Rich, I was concerned about Alex’s production; that was the main reason I wanted another bat in the middle”

    I thought A-Rod would have an .840-.850ish OPS, not the old mid-.900 guy he once was, but certainly not .783.

  89. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:25 am

    MTU, nah, the football Giants have been heavily into yoga, among others. Heading to PT, I’ll check in from the table. Have a good one, Yankee people!

  90. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 11:26 am

    Blake-

    The accounts are that Hairston is trying to decide not only about the usual things but about being a FT guy with the Mutts or a PT guy with the Yankees.

  91. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:27 am

    Rich, I was worried about injury with Alex. I still hope he can come back and give us decent midpoint numbers. But Yanks needed him as a complement and not the main dude. Later.

  92. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:27 am

    “Rich, I believe you raised this first and were the most specifically outspoken in articulating the inherent risk of pitching under the age of 26.”

    Pruf, I’m not sure, but I have to give credit to Phil the Thrill, who I have known from other boards/blogs.

  93. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:27 am

    not *as the… (obviously after Cano; no hopes for Teix vs. RHP)

  94. G. Love January 15th, 2013 at 11:28 am

    J.AP,

    I knew you’d remember. I think the people who watch the games the closest and aren’t dazzled by uniforms and bright lights have been able to see what the problem/flaw with this team has been offensively since 2009. I think back to the ALCS vs. Texas and how feeble the offense looked. I still have a hard time getting over the feeling I had at the stadium that night watching Andy pitch his heart out vs. Lee and our hitters swinging at pitchers before the ball left Lee’s hand. Andy put the team on his back that night and they were all swinging for the Madison Ave bridge.

    This team has been easy to diagnose for a lot of us. We’ve watched them play their beer league softball routs, build up/compile stats for the backs of the baseball card and then disappear for 7-10 games at a time.

    They won last year because the pitching was some of the best we’ve had in quite some time across the board.

    We wouldn’t have made the playoffs if Ibanez, a 1 million dollar flier, didn’t summon 2011 Sept/Oct Jorge and get us in the playoffs.

    This season, I’m hopeful that if Gardner can stay healthy and with a full season of Ichiro, we’ll have more sophisticated hitters in the lineup who aren’t just looking for a fat pitch to pull.

    I just am really down about the plan and how transparent it is. It’s not about improving talent long term. It’s not about building a strong team for years to come. It’s about profits and taxes and I have no taste for that as a fan who has plunked down a ton of money on this team.

    As long as they play the games with their checkbooks instead of their hearts, I will have a hard time feeling “positive” about where we’re headed.

    It’s one thing to rely on prospects when you have Montero, Austin Jackson and Kennedy in AAA one step from the show.

    It’s a far different thing to rely on A and barely AA guys to save the team’s bacon so they can maximize profits.

    It seems like they find religion after the church gets wiped out from a hurricane.

    Great approach.

  95. Shame Spencer January 15th, 2013 at 11:29 am

    fem – At The Rock. They have a skating facility built in right next to the Prudential Center. It’s awesome. They even open it up for discounted open skates after games. You have no idea how happy it makes me that Newark has an ice skating rink!

    MTU – The smart thing is to hold him back…… but they’ve put themselves in quite a bind.

  96. MTU January 15th, 2013 at 11:30 am

    YF-

    I have never had a major injury in my time hiking despite the fact that many of my friends have.

    One of the reasons I believe so is because I do a lot of stretching before starting out and I also warmup.

    The others generally do not.

    Maybe that’s not the whole answer but I think it’s certainly part of it.

    So in all seriousness. I am definitely a believer.

  97. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2013 at 11:33 am

    G. Love January 15th, 2013 at 11:19 am

    J.AP,

    I was tremendously down on this offense last year. That’s why I’m one of the ring leaders of negative nancies who so pollute the discussion here.

    This team hasn’t been able to hit decent pitching since 2009. I’ve never seen a lineup of so many guys who look like they’ve never seen a breaking ball in my life. It’s like the pitcher is conjuring voodoo up there.
    ///

    Yes, I remember many posts from you on this. I do think being there in-time and watching ABs that are critical to postseason survival plays a great deal into your outlook. Yeah, you can see it on television, but the abject failure of Martin and Swisher (whom you rightly name as major culprits) in 2011 is so much more in in relief when one is actually witnessing it in 3D reality.

    Yes, 2010 we also had problems: watch Cliff Lee mystify us in that otherwise Pettitte gem and watch San Francisco patiently take him away in the World Series. This has been a problem of approach for a long time, compounded by loss of bat speed. The trend of precipitous decline is there for anyone interested to see over a 3-year period, Teixeira’s individal decline over that time-span points up the systemic problem.

  98. G. Love January 15th, 2013 at 11:34 am

    Yanksfem,

    Great minds think alike. That 2010 ALCS against Texas was the tipping point for me when I realized this really was not a well put together offensive team. It’s when I realized Tex & Swisher were becoming invisible heroes when they should’ve anchored the offense in their “primes”. It only got worse after that, but because of the regular season compiling against straight batting practice fastballs they were able to hide until the season ended the games counted more.

  99. G. Love January 15th, 2013 at 11:40 am

    J.AP,

    It would truly get comical. I think you know the rhythms of watching the game live. Once you see these guys enough you can jokingly say, “here comes a breaking ball low & away strike three”…except after awhile it was just good humored pessimism. After awhile it became scripture with some of these hitters.

    I still think of Swisher finally going to the plate looking for a breaking ball (since that’s all he was being thrown) and getting a single in the playoffs this year and celebrating on 1b like he just hit a game winner. There was no one on base. He was just celebrating getting a single off a breaking ball that every fan with a brain could tell you was coming since he never bothered to look for them.

    His subtraction will be a net gain in the end I believe. Ichiro is a far more complete hitter than Swisher despite what OPS tells you.

    We still need bats and not one bat. We need a C who can hit, an OF who can hit and solid DH.

    We’ll likely have none of the three before the season starts. This year, more than any year, I feel like a couple of injuries to guys like Jeter and Ichiro and we’re cooked. There’s no depth whatsoever on this team right now.

  100. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2013 at 11:41 am

    I still have a hard time getting over the feeling I had at the stadium that night watching Andy pitch his heart out vs. Lee and our hitters swinging at pitchers before the ball left Lee’s hand. Andy put the team on his back that night and they were all swinging for the Madison Ave bridge.

    This team has been easy to diagnose for a lot of us. We’ve watched them play their beer league softball routs, build up/compile stats for the backs of the baseball card and then disappear for 7-10 games at a time.

    They won last year because the pitching was some of the best we’ve had in quite some time across the board.
    ///

    Seems we were writing about “Cliffie” vs. Andy at the same time.

    What rails me is Andy had Michael Young TWICE looking, IIRC, and after he got on, Hamilton hit it out and with our approach, down 2-0, we were up s**t’s creek :(.

    About to hit the road.

    Good one, all.

  101. G. Love January 15th, 2013 at 11:41 am

    Meant to say, “after awhile it was NOT good humored pessimism.”

  102. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:42 am

    Swisher is pretty good, not great, and I’m not a fan of his act, but if he was four years younger, I would have hoped that they re-signed him, flaws and all.

  103. pat January 15th, 2013 at 11:42 am

    jonmorosi
    Also, use of smokeless tobacco by uniform personnel in WBC is prohibited.

  104. yankeefeminista January 15th, 2013 at 11:46 am

    “I still have a hard time getting over the feeling I had at the stadium that night watching Andy pitch his heart out vs. Lee and our hitters swinging at pitchers before the ball left Lee’s hand. Andy put the team on his back that night and they were all swinging for the Madison Ave bridge.”
    ___
    This. I <3 you and Andy. That series was tough to take; made worse by having to sit in the Texas family section. Ugh. I am as late as some of the Yankees on a postseason fastball :( Gotta dash.

  105. Ys Guy January 15th, 2013 at 11:47 am

    I wonder who still chaws on the Yankees. I’m pretty sure youkilis does. Swisher did. I wonder who else.

  106. blake January 15th, 2013 at 11:48 am

    @keithlaw: Best look-at-me opportunity ever! MT @jrebello21: Jeter = first unanimous vote. Even the “look at me” crowd won’t want to mess with that.

  107. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:49 am

    btw, Re-reading my first two posts, maybe I wasn’t clear. Part of the reason I thought that the 2012 would hold the fort was because I expected at least some contribution from Montero. The idea that they would believe they had offense to spare was nuts.

  108. randy l. January 15th, 2013 at 11:50 am

    the orioles won almost as many games as the yankees with about the same pitching and a much worse offense .

    to me this says all runs are not equal.

    how was showalter able to win almost as many games as girardi with a lot fewer runs?

    is showalter better at getting a run when he needs one?

    the free swinging yankee offense couldn’t exist without girardi agreeing with it. i don’t think it’s just the players. i think the coaching and management are as much responsible for the approach.

  109. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2013 at 11:50 am

    Martin chewed also.

  110. PacoDooley January 15th, 2013 at 11:52 am

    The last few trades involving top quality prospects didn’t work out well for the Yankees, so perhaps this suggests that we have some faith in the farm and hope that they can get a stream of talent coming through (let’s hope Soriano signs somewhere soon to help this along!).

    A while ago they traded a lot of guys, like Tabata, that never panned out, but recently the success has been mediocre. However, trades involving lesser talents have gone fine for the most part (part from the recent Stewart trade, which looked bad at the time)

  111. blake January 15th, 2013 at 11:52 am

    @jonmorosi: Bryce Harper’s status for the World Baseball Classic remains unchanged: He’s not expected to play.

    Sucks….Harper and Trout playing together would have been cool

  112. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:52 am

    @keithlaw: Best look-at-me opportunity ever! MT @jrebello21: Jeter = first unanimous vote. Even the “look at me” crowd won’t want to mess with that.
    _

    Rivera may be the first because if they fail to do so, they may have to deal with the Lord. :)

  113. Patrick January 15th, 2013 at 11:53 am

    Rivera may be the first because if they fail to do so, they may have to deal with the Lord.

    keithlaw ?@keithlaw
    Only Sutter, among the worst players in the Hall, has fewer IP. RT @zshap: @keithlaw what about rivera?

  114. Mike Ri January 15th, 2013 at 11:54 am

    the free swinging yankee offense couldn?t exist without girardi agreeing with it. i don?t think it?s just the players. i think the coaching and management are as much responsible for the approach.

    —-
    Randy . .these are Multi Million dollar baseball players .. . do you really think they pay attention to any coach…… Girardi and Cashman may hate the Yankee hitters approach…. but theres nothing they can do…… Girardi can’t bench them , ,a nd Cashman can’t fine or take there money away.

  115. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:55 am

    ” perhaps this suggests that we have some faith in the farm and hope that they can get a stream of talent coming through ”

    Only if they have to patience to endure “failure.” In AJack’s first two seasons, his OPS+ was 102 and 88. Would the Yankees be willing to live with that for that long? Who knows?

  116. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 11:55 am

    keithlaw ?@keithlaw
    Only Sutter, among the worst players in the Hall, has fewer IP. RT @zshap: @keithlaw what about rivera?
    _

    The game has changed, right?

  117. RS January 15th, 2013 at 11:59 am

    A lot of this season’s success depends on Cano, Granderson, and Youkilis. Three guys who have middle-of-the-order potential and are in their walk years. All were signed to team-friendly contracts during their prime, and are probably itching to have a big year right before they hit free agency. The Yankees need these three to perform to a high standard in order to have any shot at the playoffs.

  118. blake January 15th, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    Yea somebody won’t vote for Rivera cause he’s a closer

  119. Shame Spencer January 15th, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    randy – Good point about the O’s… I don’t think they’ll repeat last year, but at the same time it’s hard for me to pinpoint a reason why given they have a couple of young players that are going to be contributing for a full season. Getting Machado in there every day in 2013 is basically as good as them making a trade this off season.

  120. blake January 15th, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    I think Jeter will get really close to 100%….some dufus won’t vote for him but I think even the the guys that would like to leave him off their ballots will fear the backlash if they don’t

  121. Shame Spencer January 15th, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    blake January 15th, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    Yea somebody won’t vote for Rivera cause he’s a closer

    ——————

    Goose should provide interesting commentary on that one…

  122. Shame Spencer January 15th, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    blake January 15th, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    I think Jeter will get really close to 100%….some dufus won’t vote for him but I think even the the guys that would like to leave him off their ballots will fear the backlash if they don’t

    —————

    Jeet owns the media. For good reason, of course, but I imagine him getting well over 80% and only not being at 100% because there are always some fools submitting blank ballots.

  123. Rich in NJ January 15th, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    Goose thinks closers are more valuable when they pitch multiple innings like he did.

  124. Shame Spencer January 15th, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    :arrow:

  125. Ys Guy January 15th, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    Isn’t sutter the only pitcher in the HOF with no starts?

  126. blake January 15th, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    “Jeet owns the media. For good reason, of course, but I imagine him getting well over 80% and only not being at 100% because there are always some fools submitting blank ballots.”

    That’s true ….I think he gets over 95% though barring some crazy thing happening between now and then

  127. Ys Guy January 15th, 2013 at 12:09 pm

    Gross age had more starts (17) than mo (10)

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