Still waiting for the final analysis
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 28, 2013 
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I know, I know, today’s was another Pinch Hitter post about the $189-million plan. In all honesty, it’s hard to get away from that topic. A guest post about Austin Romine as a everyday catcher is significant because the Yankees didn’t sign a more proven alternative this winter. A guest post about the value of durability carries weight because the Yankees have to worry about their aging players being able to contribute with a limited budget for replacements. A guest post about the global brand of the franchise is put in the context of a team that’s no longer drastically outspending the competition.
The desire to get the payroll below $189 million next season impacts basically every aspect of this team, it dominates every bit of the conversation, and that’s going to be even more true next winter.
This morning, Gordon tried to look back at the Yankees historical path from spending marginally more than everyone else to spending much, much more than everyone else. His conclusion: Cutting spending will actually help the Yankees build a true dynasty; it will get them away from an approach of constantly plugging holes with expensive and risky contracts.
The Yankees won’t bid against themselves in an artificial market for overpriced free agents. They’ll be less likely to sign regrettable, long-term contracts that can erode into Alex Rodriguez-type situations. They will have more incentive to truly develop young players who are often more valuable and effective than high-priced veterans.
It’s the optimistic way of looking at it, no doubt, but it also kind of fits with these best case, worst case posts that I’ve been writing for every position.
For the long-term future of this team, the best case scenario is everything that Gordon wrote. Player development and smart spending are the golden tickets to building something sustainable, and that’s especially true with a team that’s willing to put its payroll at or near the top of league spending. There’s risk involved, but an absolute, best-case scenario involves developing core talent from within, filling the gaps with bold trades and potent free agent spending, and filling the edges of the roster with fringy, in-house prospects and smart, risk-reward free agent signings.
Thing is, the worst-case scenario of that model is also still in play. Player development and hesitant spending guarantees nothing, and it doesn’t carry the same message that came with the previous spend-at-will approach. One thing I’ve learned – that I didn’t really understand at first – is that there was comfort in knowing that the team was spending a ton of money in the 2000s. It didn’t always work, but it was an indication that ownership was committed to the cause.
Ultimately, though, it’s winning that matters, and it’s winning that will determine whether this new approach is a success. We’ll keep talking about it for weeks and months, but the final analysis won’t come from looking back or looking ahead, it will come from real life results. When we see how this plays out, only then will we know whether it was the right decision.
Associated Press photos
Hal has the $$$, (his daddy’s) and Refuses to spend it. THE END.
“Ultimately, though, it’s winning that matters, and it’s winning that will determine whether this new approach is a success. We’ll keep talking about it for weeks and months, but the final analysis won’t come from looking back or looking ahead, it will come from real life results. When we see how this plays out, only then will we know whether it was the right decision.”
Agree Chad. We can talk a blue streak about it voicing our POV’s on both sides in an endless parade
of ideas but what you said above is the bottom line.
Time will tell the tale.
And the results will be the final arbiter of the correct approach.
My preference is to find a balance between MiLB development and strategic acquisition thru FA’s or Trades.
In all these things, I never understand why the team cannot both spend lots of money and focus on player development. They are not mutually exclusive damnit!
sigh – my sleeper pick for Yankee LH DH is off the table – Kelly Johnson is signing with Tampa. Thought his power and defensive versatility would have made a lot of sense for the Yankees. Now they’re going to use him and Ben Zobrist as basically duplicate versions of each other. Smart signing by a smart organization.
JF-
I agree. They are not.
Two sides of the same coin.
This would be fine if it looked for 1 second they would actually use their prospects. Does anyone think Melky Mesa has a real chance to play on the team? How about David Adams? Ronnie Musteiler? Brett Marshall? My guess is besides Romine (hopefully just filling in until Sanchez grows), the only prospect we see get a real shot in the next year or two is Slade Heathcott (at least before 2015). 2014 will be filled with 1 year old vet plugs to replace the next line of starts that leave.
Sign… Soriano?
No one will sign Manny, not even to entertain me
It’s really about having the patience to endure growing pains on the ML level. Absent that, even really good player development guarantees nothing, whether you are willing to spend a lot or a little.
That’s why the traded AJack and IPK in the Granderson deal. It may be why Joba never got the chance to start again.
It’s also about understanding that pitching does not hold the keys to the kingdom.
That’s why they traded Montero for a pitcher with significant issues, and it’s why they overpaid AJ.
Until we see the change in the mindset, I see no reason to believe that anything has changed that should foster any optimism.
@jaysonst
My All-Unemployed Team:
1B C Kotchman
2B R Theriot
SS Alex Gonzalez
3B Brandon Inge
LF Johnny Damon
CF Michael Bourn
RF B Abreu
C K Shoppach
No one will sign Manny, not even to entertain me
___
I know Cashman is all about the image of the franchise, but offer Manny a minor league deal for 1 M with an offer to ST. No one else is. Worst that happens? you lose 1m or he starts playing and gets his 3rd strike for PEDs. BEst case, he actually hits for average and power and fills a power hole where Alex was 3 years ago.
Would Abreu be worth a try? He’s old and cheap. Sounds like the perfect fit.
Jerkface January 28th, 2013 at 11:58 am
In all these things, I never understand why the team cannot both spend lots of money and focus on player development. They are not mutually exclusive damnit!
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Agreed – and that’s basically what the Yankees were in the late 90s. They were developing guys like Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Andy, Bernie and paying to keep them. They were also developing quality minor leaguers like Milton, Guzman, Sterling, Davis et al that allowed them to go out and trade for key players like Knobby, Tino, Nelson
All I know is right Now the Yankee lineup has holes you could drive a truck through, and that is because Hal Refuses to part with the coin. THAT is Now, and THAT is Fact.
ac1 January 28th, 2013 at 12:02 pm
No one will sign Manny, not even to entertain me
___
I know Cashman is all about the image of the franchise, but offer Manny a minor league deal for 1 M with an offer to ST. No one else is. Worst that happens? you lose 1m or he starts playing and gets his 3rd strike for PEDs. BEst case, he actually hits for average and power and fills a power hole where Alex was 3 years ago.
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I’m with you ac lol, I’d love to see Manny in the postgame every day!
He’s a RH bat though..
I agree about this ridiculous idea about defense and pitching.
Posada was our C for our 5 titles since 96. Hardly a defensive whiz but good hitter.
The catcher just needs to be serviceable behind the plate.
Offense is where our strength used to be.
It really could be that Hal is just telling Cash to put his money where his mouth is in regards to the minor league system he’s been touting. I just don’t like the idea that FO politics is impacting our team…
Agreed – and that’s basically what the Yankees were in the late 90s. They were developing guys like Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Andy, Bernie and paying to keep them. They were also developing quality minor leaguers like Milton, Guzman, Sterling, Davis et al that allowed them to go out and trade for key players like Knobby, Tino, Nelson
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Yea! And even look at guys like Cano & Melky & Gardner. The rest of the lineup was great, the team would afford to let them sit in their spot and get some PAs.
The Yankees should focus on making a lineup that is basically 7 deep, and then use the 8 & 9 hole as a place to develop young players. Same with the rotation. Give us 4 strong starters, and 1 guy learning the ropes.
We should be able to fill the team with good players and develop players within that coccoon. its not like they have to throw away a chance at a championship and develop every young talent all at once at every position.
Randi, I had a friend in Paris who had passed the Bar in what lawyers used to claim to be the two most difficult exams in the country – New York and Louisiana. La. apparently was still using the Napoleonic Code. (I don’t know if that’s still true.) Joyce was a gifted individual, because she then also qualified as a French lawyer.
However, I have to admit that I know very little about the subject – having managed to keep my nose clean and stayed out of jail up to now! The French system is certainly unique to France and France’s former colonies. For the most part, as far as I can tell, it works pretty well for them. It would be interesting to have a lawyers’ perspective on that – especially one with international experience. Maybe something from Austinmac, Rich in NJ or Tricia?
He’s a RH bat though..
______
So? Manny has never been a guy that could only hit lefties.
Plus our lineup is pretty lefty powerful.
Tex lost something from the right side last year.
Cano and our outfield are LH
Youk may be the only RH power in our lineup.
The Yanks are doing the same thing every other team in NY does — “we play in NY, we can’t afford to rebuild.” 5 years from now, the messy roster and a bunch of crappy finishes will force the Yanks to do what every other team in NY eventually does — rebuild. this is why the past couple of off-seasons were silly. The Yanks have basically gotten all they can out of the “Core Four” Championship team rosters. Trading Granderson, Cano, etc … for prospects made the most sense. This way, in 2-3 years, there would be a young team in place (aided by holding on to the prospects down below). Instead, the Yanks probably will be in the race come July, neither will get traded (or will be traded for less of a haul), and the Yanks will either overpay or be left with just one draft pick for each.
Hal has the $$$. NOBODY, (fan, Hal, or anyone else), should be enduring any kinda “growing pain”.
Rich,
They traded Montero for Pineda for two reasons:
1. The organization right now doesn’t highly value offense behind the plate
2. The organization’s pitching guru was awful and as a result, none of their high end internal pitching candidates have ever come close to their potential.
Rich-
Player development does take patience. No question about that.
And the Yankees have sometimes, perhaps frequently, not shown enough.
The mandate to win it all each and every season makes keeping your youngsters a difficult proposition. So you’re right about the need to change that too.
That said, my view on prospects is that most are destined to be used to acquire other items that may be needed.
Self-scouting is essential in that regard. Ours has come into question of late. If it is not up to par it needs to be fixed ASAP. It’s an essential process.
The Yankees should also always be on the lookout for true upgrades available thru FA.
And they should be willing to invest the capital to acquire those type of players to balance and supplement what the Farm provides.
No way they should be trying to keep as many players as some would like IMO.
That is also a poor allocation of resources.
2. The organization’s pitching guru was awful and as a result, none of their high end internal pitching candidates have ever come close to their potential.
___
Or managed to stay healthy. They should all have TJS now just to get it over with.
I’m with you ac, now let’s go convince Cashman!!
The mandate to win it all each and every season makes keeping your youngsters a difficult proposition. So you’re right about the need to change that too.
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I actually don’t think this is true, MTU. I don’t think the goal is mutually exclusive to being patient with the youngins. Like JF said, they were able to fold in Melky, Cano, and Wang in while still having competitive, veteran manned teams.
If anything, our resources should give us the ability to exert MORE patience, not less.
But the FO will keep misconstruing it.
Chip
As I implied, I could understand trading Montero, but if they wanted to trade him, unencumbered by their present pitching-centric mindset, it should have been for a bat.
That’s a reason to sign or trade for a veteran pitcher, not to trade for a pitcher whose development wasn’t yet finished even under the best of circumstances.
Shame Spencer January 28th, 2013 at 12:05 pm
It really could be that Hal is just telling Cash to put his money where his mouth is in regards to the minor league system he’s been touting. I just don’t like the idea that FO politics is impacting our team…
——————————————————————-
That really sounds like the very best example of cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face, doesn’t it? If you’re Hal and you are are unhappy with how Cash’s plan (if indeed it’s ALL Cash’s plan) has worked out (or unravelled), you fire Cash, don’t you? You don’t, in effect, screw up your chances for putting up a competitive team just to teach Cash a lesson. Shame, I find that hard to believe. But then who knows what these spoiled millionaires might do just for kicks!
Ken_Rosenthal
#Phillies announce signing of free-agent IF Yuniesky Betancourt to minor-league contract with invitation to major-league spring training.
Jerkface,
I think that actually used to be the plan here. The 9 hole especially was the rookie spot where you’d let a guy develop. I loved that plan as I thought 7-8-9 was a great place to develop those bats while 1-6 did the heavy lifting although when we were truly circular our 7th place hitter could usually be another team’s cleanup guy.
When it comes to developing MiLB talent the Yankees are IMO playing catchup with a # of other teams.
For example, the Rays.
They need to work harder to put the quantity and quality of scouting, coaching, SABR, etc. to get there.
We see progress but not the full monty IMO. I want see a major push in those areas.
They have to do that, and have greater patience with young ones, if they want to be the best Farm
as well as the Team with the deepest pockets.
MTU
I agree that self-scouting is important, because even under the best development program, a team is going to have positional redundancy, and that’s why they have to decide who to trade, who to keep, and the timing of each.
More specifically, it was foreseeable a few years ago as they were accumulating catching prospects, and that some would be traded to fill other needs.
But one would have hoped that none would have been traded until a young catcher had established himself.
The opposite happened.
yanks61 – If GLove is correct and they’re setting up Cash to be the fall-guy it makes sense in a FO power struggle sort of way. But it having an impact on the actual team is pretty effing annoying. I certainly hope that’s not what they’re doing but so far they haven’t given Cash room to do ANYTHING this offseason.
Man’s been castrated.. he can’t even make offers without talking to the FO. That’s bad news bears guys… very bad news bears.
G. Love January 28th, 2013 at 12:13 pm
Jerkface,
I think that actually used to be the plan here. The 9 hole especially was the rookie spot where you’d let a guy develop. I loved that plan as I thought 7-8-9 was a great place to develop those bats while 1-6 did the heavy lifting although when we were truly circular our 7th place hitter could usually be another team’s cleanup guy.
—————–
Those were the days man… Murderer’s Row and Cano lol!
Shame-
The FO has had a bias towards trusting experience over youthful talent.
I believe that still exists and might need to change.
The other thing is that many in the Yankee Universe have about a 5 second attantion span and the Levines of the World know it. They act accordingly.
I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
Jerkface January 28th, 2013 at 11:52 am
JS,
I just can’t agree with calling out every guy who is trying to talk about sexism. That movement needs a male voice, specifically one in the male dominated areas of culture. It would be one thing if JAP were going out to feminist rallies or places predominantly female and ‘grand standing’, but he is doing it on a blog that is almost guaranteed to be 90% straight, white males.
—
I’m not “calling out every guy” or anyone for merely mentioning something. In fact, that’s the problem I am arguing against! It seems like any time someone says something that could possibly be construed as racist, like “I’d like to see more effort from Cano running to first base” or “I wasn’t a fan of Tiger Woods” (or something like that), someone, usually from a certain subset of posters here, raises the race card. We’re never going to get anywhere with all the kneejerk reactions and finger pointing.
Shame,
I actually got tired of Abreu towards the end, but since he left I’ve missed his bat a lot. He was much better than Swisher and I really felt we downgraded from Sheff to Abreu to Swisher.
That said, we can’t add any more LH bats. Right now we have 2-3 hitters who excel against LHP. If we face a decent LH starter I’d bet the oddsmakers would bet against us heavily. The fact that the team hasn’t really fixed that issue and let so many RH hitters go off the board is mind boggling to me.
Finally – first glimpses of the iceberg – - – -
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles.....ortsnet-la
The deal is subject to approval by Major League Baseball, and one baseball source privy to the negotiations told ESPN.com the team and the league could very well butt heads regarding exactly how much of the deal will be shared with other teams.
Let’s face it, the $$$ advantage that George enjoyed is Gone. But that really does Not matter, as Hal just will Not part with the $$$ to improve the 2013 Yankees. Having HUGE holes in the everyday lineup heading into Feb, is inexcusable, and shows the #1 Priority is $$$.
Abreu v. RHP last season: .236 .353 .333 .686
Unless he finds the Ibanez Yankee Stadium-only magic…
Rich-
That’s exactly my point and you helped make it.
That the self-scouting seems somewhat flawed right now.
That’s how a guy like Montero gets away from us w/o a solid replacement.
Of course we both know JG prefers D over O at the catching position.
To my kind that’s some what misguided. The Yankees have many times had a positional advantage there and elsewhere and turned it into a successful winning strategy.
I see no good reason abandon what has stood the test of time.
But hey, what the heck do I know. That’s just my layman’s take.
MTU – That might be the mindset but they should recognize they have the advantage of being more patient and not less patient given their resources. How they could miss that is pretty crazy.
BTW, the meet and greet with Cash is up to $875.
GLove – I always hated Abreu in the field but never hated him in the box. I couldn’t remember if they wanted a LH bat or a RH bat but you’re right, it’s a RH they need. Let’s go with MANNY!!!
Why on earth would Hal even Need to make Cashman a “fall guy”? If Hal feels Cashman ain’t cuttin-the-mustard, he should Fire him Immediately. This cloak-and-dagger stuff is needless, and longterm does even more damage to the Yankee Brand.
MTU
I agree. That’s why even though I would love to be optimistic, I think Chad’s best- and worst-case scenarios above miss the point unless something far more fundamental changes.
BTW, the meet and greet with Cash is up to $875.
–
I’m trying hard to win this~!
Manny would be too much of a circus for the Yankees to ever do it.
But, if they’re truly playing turn dumpster dives into gold, he’d probably come here and hit for Lobel’s steak sandwiches and is the most attractive option.
They’d just never do it to Youkilis even though he’s been a Yankee for 10 seconds. I imagine he’d flip out if they brought in Manny.
I’m not “calling out every guy” or anyone for merely mentioning something. In fact, that’s the problem I am arguing against! It seems like any time someone says something that could possibly be construed as racist, like “I’d like to see more effort from Cano running to first base” or “I wasn’t a fan of Tiger Woods” (or something like that), someone, usually from a certain subset of posters here, raises the race card. We’re never going to get anywhere with all the kneejerk reactions and finger pointing.
—————————–
For like the 10th time: No one has EVER called anyone on here a racist for saying Cano doesn’t run it out to first base.
I really think this needs to be cleared up like right now because it’s a completely untrue statement that you keep repeating.
No one ever, at any point, called you a racist for saying Cano is lazy. Ever. Not even once. Not even implied it by using other language. Not only that, but no one ever called anyone on here a racist for saying Cano doesn’t run balls out to first base.
What was posted here was a twitter comment referencing the exact study JF posted. It’s an overarching narrative and not specific to people that refer to players as ‘lazy’ on this blog.
You were the one that had the knee-jerk reaction to being called a racist (which, again, no one ever called you).
So maybe we all just need to simmah down nah. http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81958481/
JS was just trying to get out in front of it and preempt anyone calling him a racist for his future pointings out of cano’s laziness.
They’d just never do it to Youkilis even though he’s been a Yankee for 10 seconds. I imagine he’d flip out if they brought in Manny.
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Lol, if we are really letting Youk stop us from doing anything that contract is a fail on more levels than the cost-benefit.
Personally, I’d love to see a rumble in our own dugout just to make sure everyone is still engaged lol.
By the way, the thought that Hal is putting Cashman’s feet to the fire and money where his mouth is isn’t my opinion, it’s what I’ve heard a high ranking team employee say at the gym we both go to.
I can’t imagine running a team that way, willing to lose to prove a point to the GM and hold him to his word like a child.
And I’m pretty sure said team employee has been told to shut up at the gym as he no longer caucuses like he did. He actually goes inside the trainer’s office to talk to a couple of staff members privately now as opposed to holding his daily symposium in the locker room.
One could actually argue that in preparing for the upcoming contract negotiations, Cano was diligent by hiring Boras two years ago, and it was the Yankees who were lazy by not offering him another extension before that, and then not taking the initiative once Boras was hired.
Just sayin’…
“I can’t imagine running a team that way, willing to lose to prove a point to the GM and hold him to his word like a child.”
Well, it’s either that, or being completely clueless about the development process. I hope it’s the former.
Shame, what you’re saying certainly could be right. It just sounds terribly self-defeating! Doesn’t Cash’s contract expire at the end of the year? If that’s the case, they won’t need to give a reason to let him go. But if they do, they’ll probably make his severance pay dependent upon his abiding by a gag order on his Yankee years!
Ok, I’ve pitched more innings today then I have in a very long while and got my hide batted around! So I’m heading for the showers. Good night to you all.
The Yankees also messed up by not engaging A-rod in an active dialogue during 07 and working an extension for him. They threw away the subsidies the Rangers were providing for them with A-rod’s deal by letting him opt out.
The NO EXTENSION rule was stupid 5 years ago and now it is REALLY stupid.
In general, I believe a person truly knows what’s in their heart when they say anything. “He who excuses himself, accuses himself”, does apply here. Same goes for the defensive pre-emptive approach.
Up till now i had been pretty confident Arod would come back reasonably healthy from his surgery this summer. but the more i read about how arod was treated after the last hip surgery by the HGH-linked doctor in canada and now that he ‘consulted with’ the HGH-linked doctors in florida, the more worried i am.
On the one hand, you could say that if hgh helped him heal after the last sugery, then it should help this time…on the other hand, it suggests that he’s a total fraud who’s counted on PED’s throughout his career. (as Selena Roberts asserted).
and if he’s been using HGH all along, it’s obviously not working any more…
imo the yankees really screwed up royally by not attempting to have his contract voided.
@eboland11
Told by person in Tampa Jeter did baseball stuff on field for first time since surgery. Took swings in batting cage and fielded 55 grounders
GLove – Maybe they do come here and have seen you’ve been reporting back to us!! Drat.
imo the yankees really screwed up royally by not attempting to have his contract voided.
——————
They had no avenue to do this.
The positive test that was released was supposed to be confidential.
If the Yankees took action against Arod, Arod probably could have taken action against MLB. And won.
Never underestimate the stupidity of the suits. Boston’s front office telling Tito that the team should win in more exciting fashion comes to mind.
On another note; Anyone notice how deep the Yankee top thirty rankings were? That’s a lot of talent.
Rich,
I’d be lying if I said this doesn’t remind me a bit of the early 90′s where guys who were not ready to be major leaguers were brought up and given starting roles. That didn’t work too well and things didn’t start to turn around until Bernie & Gerald (to an extent) came up. The team had a penchant for promoting guys who just shouldn’t be in the majors back then and until they had actual talent to promote the results were horrid.
That’s the thing that shouldn’t get lost here. Bernie, Jeter, Mo, Andy, Jorge are a mix of 1st ballot Hall of Famers and borderline Hall of Famers. 2 of them are once in a lifetime sport icons.
If that happened just promoting any young guy and living through growing pains, every team would have a Jeter & a Mo. But even the teams who do promote and live through growing pains have nothing close to resembling either one.
I know people in here think the young guys just need a shot, but they need a shot when they are ready or close to ready and the guys they seem to be relying on right now are anything but that.
Montero was ready. Austin Jackson & Kennedy were close to being ready. There’s no one in our ml system even close to where Kennedy and Jackson were. It’s why “just let the kids play” is a dangerous statement. I’ve seen what “just let the kids play” looks like here when the kids aren’t already knocking on the door in the Bronx. And honestly a lot of those kids never went on to have major league careers after they were rushed up.
That said, if Sanchez, Heathcott and Austin were all coming off AA seasons where they raked, it’d be a completely different thing.
Arod admitted using PED’s. no test results were needed.
and if he’s been using HGH all along, it’s obviously not working any more…
____
This would be an argument for why steroids and hgh taking does NOT make you better.
If Alex is still juicing, it is not making anything better.
Shame Spencer January 28th, 2013 at 12:29 pm
I’m not “calling out every guy” or anyone for merely mentioning something. In fact, that’s the problem I am arguing against! It seems like any time someone says something that could possibly be construed as racist, like “I’d like to see more effort from Cano running to first base” or “I wasn’t a fan of Tiger Woods” (or something like that), someone, usually from a certain subset of posters here, raises the race card. We’re never going to get anywhere with all the kneejerk reactions and finger pointing.
—————————–
For like the 10th time: No one has EVER called anyone on here a racist for saying Cano doesn’t run it out to first base.
I really think this needs to be cleared up like right now because it’s a completely untrue statement that you keep repeating.
No one ever, at any point, called you a racist for saying Cano is lazy. Ever. Not even once. Not even implied it by using other language. Not only that, but no one ever called anyone on here a racist for saying Cano doesn’t run balls out to first base.
What was posted here was a twitter comment referencing the exact study JF posted. It’s an overarching narrative and not specific to people that refer to players as ‘lazy’ on this blog.
You were the one that had the knee-jerk reaction to being called a racist (which, again, no one ever called you).
So maybe we all just need to simmah down nah. http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81958481/
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I didn’t say someone jumped up and said “Jacksquat, you’re a racist!”, did I?
What I object to is the *subject* of racism always being bought up. And yes, you are somewhat implying people may be being racist if you bring up the subject, which has definitely happened far more than once here. It’s sort of a way of making an accusation without specifically pointing a finger at someone in particular, which by the way is cowardly and pathetic. People don’t want to make a specific criticism of someone or one post, because that’s too confrontational, they’d rather make some cutesy generic post about racism in general. Except for Randy, he just flat out called Tom a bigot.
The most recent example is when JUpton was traded and somehow Towers’ interview got turned into the subject of laziness/JUpton and someone posted a copy of a tweet, YF concurred or something, then we got JAP saying something about no no the lazy word being reserved for our latinos, ETC Do I really need to go back and try to find these posts?
But JS, that’s talking about a current issue in the sport. The only one who seemed to take direct offense to it was you.
Alex didn’t have to admit anything, but in admitting steroid use during his Texas years he certainly created an opening for the Yankees to try and void and/or re-negotiate his contract. Certainly the MLBPA would have fought them on it.
Obviously they decided it wasn’t worth the damage it would to do their relationship with him, let alone the potential impact on other players who may not want to sign with a team that would do this. Would have at least been worth a quiet conversation…. maybe let Alex claim it was his idea.
86,
It doesn’t matter if he admitted it or not, it wasn’t going to give the Yankees an opening to void the contract.
Shame,
I tried to be cagey about where I was running into this person but then everyone figured out it was in the gym so I figured I’d stop being so cloak & dagger about it. I think the Yankee employee I run into has been spoken to. He’s an older man who loved the attention he was getting from people when he was giving up the dirt. To go cold turkey on that is kind of odd.
For the record I’ve also run into David Duchovny at the same gym. He was filming a movie up near my house apparently. I would say that his character on Californication is pretty close to the real life guy. He likes the ladies.
I just think the people making the baseball decisions aren’t as good as the ones who did it in the mid 90s.
On the one hand, you have Cashman who wants to be viewed on the same level as Theo and Beane but isn’t because the perception is that he makes a lot of bad choices that get covered up by Yankee money (which also happens to be true). So he wanted to prove he could build from with in, which thus far he’s shown an inability to do. Hiring the wrong people to run aspects of development, getting gun shy when international free agents don’t pan out, not using the team’s financial advantage to take good players in the back end of the draft. And beyond that, as much as Cashman says he wants to develop from within, he’s part of the same George culture that says you can’t play rookies or be patient with rookies because of the myth that the fan base won’t tolerate it.
This is like the 50′s, and Congress checkin’ for a commie under every bed. Ridiculous, time consuming, and needless.
G. Love
Right, and if AJack had been integrated into the lineup in 2010, they would have had A-Rod, Cano, Jeter, Swisher, and Tex to offset the time it would for him to adjust to the league. Then AJack would have been part of the group that could have been able to compensate for Montero’s learning curve in 2012.
So even if Sanchez, Heathcott, and Austin turn out to be what they hope, as presently constructed, it’s hard to see which established hitters will be able to provide cover for them.
They have dug themselves an unnecessary hole.
Ys Guy January 28th, 2013 at 12:47 pm
Arod admitted using PED’s. no test results were needed.
——————–
He admitted it because the test results were exposed. He didn’t just admit it because he felt like it.
Just my guess, but if the Yanks woulda attempted to Void A-Rod’s contract based on his admitting to steroid usage, precedent would have been set, and they would have then been forced to void ALL contracts of steroid users on their roster henceforth.
The AJ Burnett overpay was the result of Ian Kennedy being awful and Phil Hughes being hurt in 2008 as well as Moose retiring.
Had Kennedy and Hughes been good in 08 then the Yankees probably don’t sign AJ the next year – they may not even sign CC at that point.
I don’t have a problem with the Austin Jackson for Curtis Granderson deal – first of all $189 wasn’t on the table back then; second, as much as I don’t like Granderson, he is a 40 HR centerfielder. Giving up Jackson (and Kennedy who wasn’t wowing anyone with either his stuff or attitude) was a good risk.
“pencer January 28th, 2013 at 12:57 pm
Ys Guy January 28th, 2013 at 12:47 pm
Arod admitted using PED’s. no test results were needed.
——————–
He admitted it because the test results were exposed. He didn’t just admit it because he felt like it.”
======================================
the yankees had nothing to do with the leaking of arod’s results. and arod did not have to admit anything no matter what selena roberts wrote.
And yes, you are somewhat implying people may be being racist if you bring up the subject, which has definitely happened far more than once here. It’s sort of a way of making an accusation without specifically pointing a finger at someone in particular, which by the way is cowardly and pathetic.
———————–
If I want to make an accusation, I’ll go ahead an make one.
I still can’t figure out why you were the only person on here who felt you were being accused of being a racist based on that conversation.
As far as I can tell, you’re still the only person that feels their rights to free speech have somehow been impeded by the discussion.
JF posted a study that was 100% relevant to the discussion.. and it was discussed.
I have no problem calling someone racist if I think they’re racist. Same with sexism. Please don’t accuse me of being a coward over something I never implied about you and something I don’t actually think is true.
Me being cutsie is just a product of my penchant for being adorable at all times. There is nothing I can do about that, unfortunately.
the yankees had nothing to do with the leaking of arod’s results. and arod did not have to admit anything no matter what selena roberts wrote.
——————
The results were taken under the protection of MLB. The Yankees are in effect owned by MLB. The Yankees had no legal ground to stand on to void his contract based on those results OR the admission the exposure of those results caused. If they did, they probably would have tried to do it.
Rich,
Ajack could’ve easily been slotted into the 9 hole and just be allowed to develop. The fans would’ve put up with growing pains from him for a few reasons. His fielding would’ve lit up the crowd and he plays/runs hard. Nunez gets a lot of credit from me and many others because when that guy is on the bases he runs like his life depends on it. That speaks to fans.
Ajack would’ve won the crowd over because he would’ve looked so different from the big hairy monsters. It’s why Gardner gets a lot of love from the fans. It’s refreshing seeing guys with that kind of athleticism in the field and on the base paths.
Granderson’s been good for us with the power and I don’t think his defense costs us games, but seeing what’s going on here now with the budget and knowing Grandy is going to walk for a pick after the season, it’s tough to come out on the side of the fence that will call that trade a success for Cashman. Yes, he got a 40HR hitter. But he got one that doesn’t hit for average and can’t be in the middle of the order because of his flaws at the plate.
And if he had kept Ajack, the payroll would be about 12 million lighter right now.
Jerkface January 28th, 2013 at 12:51 pm
But JS, that’s talking about a current issue in the sport. The only one who seemed to take direct offense to it was you.
—
Why does racism need to be bought up? Maybe JUpton really is lazy. Or Maybe he has a bad attitude! Maybe “grinder” was not a racist code word. But no, racism!
Jerkface says:
January 28, 2013 at 12:37 pm
The Yankees also messed up by not engaging A-rod in an active dialogue during 07 and working an extension for him. They threw away the subsidies the Rangers were providing for them with A-rod’s deal by letting him opt out.
Sorta par for the course with them….if you won’t consider extensions for players then don’t whine when you have to pay through the nose to keep them
Shame, you are not getting what I am saying.
Why does racism need to be bought up? Maybe JUpton really is lazy. Or Maybe he has a bad attitude! Maybe “grinder” was not a racist code word. But no, racism!
–
But… actually, it kind of is a racist code word!?!? Which is the problem, and why it is ripe for discussion. There is no evidence that Jupton is lazy, or having a bad attitude. Its all speculation that reeks of casual racism!
Its a documented problem in baseball, so you think perhaps it should be ignored?
It would be a bit foolish for the Yankees to expect to develop another 5-6 player core like they had in the 90s all at the same time….just doesn’t happen often. You hope it does but the reality is that of that group in A ball….the odds say that one will be an above average big leaguer…..one will just entirely and the other two will be usefull but not stars. I think there is a chance they exceed that and all be good…..but it’s not very likely
Pineda sighting!
eboland11 Among those working out with Jeter at the team’s minor league complex today: Robertson, Cervelli and Pineda.
“The results were taken under the protection of MLB. The Yankees are in effect owned by MLB.”
—————————————–
this is nonsense.
What is nonsense is thinking the Yankees can get out of their UPC with A-rod because he used PEDs.
I’ll ask Cashman about it when I have my meet & greet
jacksquat January 28th, 2013 at 1:08 pm
Shame, you are not getting what I am saying.
——————
I think you are missing the major point: That certain language is used by a large majority to describe a specific type of player (ie: not white). This is a thing that really happens, intentional or not. Studies have been done to prove this is the case and that minority players are described differently than their white counterparts. It is very simple.
The more the language/narrative is repeated the more people reproduce the language/narrative. Creating an unintentional stereotype… but still a stereotype. Which is fair game for discussion on a sports blog since it’s about athletes.
Ys Guy January 28th, 2013 at 1:14 pm
“The results were taken under the protection of MLB. The Yankees are in effect owned by MLB.”
—————————————–
this is nonsense.
—————–
What part?
That the Yankees are an entity of MLB??
Jerkface says:
January 28, 2013 at 1:14 pm
What is nonsense is thinking the Yankees can get out of their UPC with A-rod because he used PEDs.
What if they spiked his oatmeal with steroids enough times so that he gets suspended forever
That woukd probably be unethical
RadioKev January 28th, 2013 at 1:14 pm
Pineda sighting!
eboland11 Among those working out with Jeter at the team’s minor league complex today: Robertson, Cervelli and Pineda.
——————-
I wonder if Jeter is letting Cervelli park his car at Jetersburg….?
I hope Pineda doesn’t have a car.
i hope the guy who’s counting how many ground balls jeter took is getting paid…
you think arod and his g/f share their hgh ‘meals’ together?
im a hopeless romantic….
Guess Pineda is trying to shake the ‘not dedicated enough’ reputation he has developed
Jerkface says:
January 28, 2013 at 1:14 pm
What is nonsense is thinking the Yankees can get out of their UPC with A-rod because he used PEDs.
***************************************************************************
It’s not nonsense at all. I might have gotten ugly and they might not have prevailed, but the Yankees certainly could have tried to make the case for fraud. At the very least the milestone marketing bonuses where rendered almost value-less.
Technically A-Rod never opted out of the contract. He announced he was going to, but never did. Texas did continue to make its contributions.
Shame
“I hope Pineda doesn’t have a car.”
I’m actually OK with that. I just hope he still has a rt. arm ?
Suspended players are suspended without pay, but I don’t think that actually reduces the teams luxury tax burden. So the contract is still on the books, the team just isn’t paying physical payroll.
The reason I say this is because even the lifetime ban can be reinstated, so if reinstated the player would still be under control of his previous contract.
So maybe not the best idea, blake
“IT might have gotten ugly”
Jerkface January 28th, 2013 at 1:10 pm
Why does racism need to be bought up? Maybe JUpton really is lazy. Or Maybe he has a bad attitude! Maybe “grinder” was not a racist code word. But no, racism!
–
But… actually, it kind of is a racist code word!?!? Which is the problem, and why it is ripe for discussion. There is no evidence that Jupton is lazy, or having a bad attitude. Its all speculation that reeks of casual racism!
Its a documented problem in baseball, so you think perhaps it should be ignored?
—
What I am saying is that not every time the word lazy is used in reference to a non-caucasian, and not every time a caucasian player is called a grinder is it because of racism. YET, almost every time someone raises the racism subject, so it’s almost as if you are always walking on eggshells. That is the problem. I didn’t say it should never be a topic of discussion.
The Yankees aren’t very good at development for a couple of reasons the top one (in my opinion) is that they are the most cautious/passive organization around. They keep guys for whole years at lower levels rather than promoting them up. They load their AAA team with washed up major leaguers (for every one Corban Joseph there are two guys like Fukudome and Cust who have absolutely no role with the organization) which means that everyone else is too far away to either help the big club or be a viable trade chip.
Additionally, outside of Dave Miley, there’s not a really good development team in their minor leagues – they addressed it partially by replacing Contreras – but if you don’t want to spend money on players, then go out and assemble the best instructional group you can to better ensure the development of your prospects.
Tackelberry January 28th, 2013 at 1:29 pm
Guess Pineda is trying to shake the ‘not dedicated enough’ reputation he has developed
——————–
That’s a good thing. At least we can’t say he isn’t trying
Technically A-Rod never opted out of the contract. He announced he was going to, but never did. Texas did continue to make its contributions.
–
No, he did opt out. Texas just had deferred compensation from the previous contract that still had to be paid to A-rod. A-rod was a free agent. He had a deadline to opt out, did so, and then re-signed with the Yankees in december. If he had only said he was going to, and then did not, then the Yankees could have simply stopped negotiating with him once the 10 day window passed.
Jerkface –
We don’t know what Upton’s like in the clubhouse – laziness doesn’t just have to be something you see during the game, it could be a problem in how he goes about his business practicing or working out or rehabbing injury.
Carl Pavano was lazy – that wasn’t a racist thing, but it’s also not something you would know by watching him pitch (the few times he did) for the Yankees.
blake January 28th, 2013 at 1:23 pm
That woukd probably be unethical
—
How could it be unethical if steroids/cheating are not unethical to begin with?
“So maybe not the best idea, blake ”
If they did have to pay his salary then who cares about the tax…..and also if they framed him enough then maybe they could void it!
We don’t know what Upton’s like in the clubhouse – laziness doesn’t just have to be something you see during the game, it could be a problem in how he goes about his business practicing or working out or rehabbing injury.
–
Well his teammates seemed to have nothing bad to say about him, other than that he was not ‘fiery’. He played through multiple injuries to try and help his team win. How is that not the definition of a grinder?
If you’re the Yankees, and David Adams has a good season this year, don’t you at least have to turn to Alex and tell him that going forward his role with the team will be as the DH against LHP. That would mean significant bench time and might be enough to convince him to retire, especially if you throw in that if he does retire you’ll work out some personal service contract with him so that he can stay within the organization.
Teixeira refuses to change his LH swing. Is that lazy?
“How could it be unethical if steroids/cheating are not unethical to begin with? ”
But they are against the rules and framing somebody is unethical. If Arod really cared he would juice up and therefore either play better or get suspended!
anyway my point wasnt to rehash whether they would have won had they moved to void or amend arod’s contract.
it was that im less sure now that he’ll be reasonably healthy after this hip surgery.
You guys are getting too caught up in the individual player aspect of things… This is something much bigger than an individual statement or player. There is evidence that supports that this bias exists.
Rich in NJ says:
January 28, 2013 at 1:35 pm
Teixeira refuses to change his LH swing. Is that lazy?
It’s probably not really possible at this point….old dog…new tricks …he tried to change last year and it was ugly….he is what he is from the left side. He needs to try and walk more and hit as many bombs as possible
Jerkface January 28th, 2013 at 1:34 pm
We don’t know what Upton’s like in the clubhouse – laziness doesn’t just have to be something you see during the game, it could be a problem in how he goes about his business practicing or working out or rehabbing injury.
–
Well his teammates seemed to have nothing bad to say about him, other than that he was not ‘fiery’. He played through multiple injuries to try and help his team win. How is that not the definition of a grinder?
—————-
Players aren’t often going to rip their teammates (at least not on the record).
We might never know the full story – my best guess, based on what we saw, is that the owner wasn’t thrilled with the lack of production from him and Stephen Drew, said something and then neither guy was happy to be in trade rumors. Drew was moved and Upton was bitter and so it just became a bad situation.
Chip January 28th, 2013 at 1:35 pm
If you’re the Yankees, and David Adams has a good season this year, don’t you at least have to turn to Alex and tell him that going forward his role with the team will be as the DH against LHP.
——————
Sure but as it stands right now we don’t know how much playing time he’ll even get.
blake
I don’t disagree that he might not be successful, but the discussion about Cano seems to relate to effort. So my point was really sort of sarcastic about the difficulty in assessing that in ballplayer based on what are really inferences.
Rich in NJ January 28th, 2013 at 1:35 pm
Teixeira refuses to change his LH swing. Is that lazy?
———-
Not a hitting coach, but I think the idea Tex had when changing his swing a bit last spring was to beat the shift by going the other way, which is dumb. Tex using his original swing is back trying to beat the shift by hitting the ball over their heads – that’s what you want him doing in the 3/4 spot.
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I wish we had Uptons lazy self to go along with Canos lazy self given that they are a lot better than the grinder joes that Cashman is in the mode to sign.
Cano works his tail off….you don’t improve like he has in his career without working
Chip
See my post above to blake, but to your point, this version of Tex is not a #3-#4 hitter from the left side, no matter what his approach is.
And btw, I’m probably the only one arguing this here because look at all the hell I’m catching just for raising the subject.
That said, I’m done with this conversation. If either direct or indirect accusations of racism, bigotry, sexism etc. continue getting thrown around like parking tickets, I’ll just email Chad instead of objecting.
Rich,
The “lazy Cano” comments are based on the fact that sometimes he appears lazy in how he flips the ball around in the field or seems to saunter over to a grounder. When things are going well it’s overlooked because he’s talented enough to be a star without seeming to put out full effort, when things are going badly then he’s lazy. It’s a perception based on results, not race.
For example, when the Yankees are playing really well then they’re a veteran team. When they’re in a slump then they’re an old team.
“I don’t disagree that he might not be successful, but the discussion about Cano seems to relate to effort. So my point was really sort of sarcastic about the difficulty in assessing that in ballplayer based on what are really inferences.”
Yea I know.. I wasn’t disagreeing with your point so much as accepting the reality of tex
The Yankees aren’t very good at development for a couple of reasons the top one (in my opinion) is that they are the most cautious/passive organization around. They keep guys for whole years at lower levels rather than promoting them up. They load their AAA team with washed up major leaguers (for every one Corban Joseph there are two guys like Fukudome and Cust who have absolutely no role with the organization) which means that everyone else is too far away to either help the big club or be a viable trade chip.
***************************************************************************
Could not possibly agree more. Great point. I’d like to see ALL the high end guys in Scranton and Trenton…. not Tampa or Charleston.
I think that it is dangerous for us, as fans, to try to make judgements about whether a player is lazy or not based on what we see. We don’t know what kind of effort a player puts out except for when he’s on the field and we can see him.
Cano might be one of the hardest working guys in the offseason and between games in baseball, but when he basically trots down to first on a double play ball he LOOKS lazy. Justin Upton might play through injuries but he also might half ass his way through drills, and if that’s the case – then as the manager and gm of a young team, that’s not the guy you want around your club, because not everyone has as much natural talent as Upton but they will look to him (as the best player) as an example of how to work.
To Nick in SF-
Did you buy any Yankees vs A’s tickets yesterday?
I didn’t but I am thinking about buying some today
Chip
Right, appears to be. So it’s an inference. An appearance of something isn’t a fact.
My point is that irrespective of ethnicity, making judgments about a players being lazy in this way (or for that matter, his ability to make adjustments at the plate), is to embark on a slippery slope.
It’s an extreme example, but it recalls the stories about J.R. Richard:
But something was wrong. Starting in May, Richard said that he didn’t feel right. He went to the Astros doctors, and they couldn’t find anything wrong with him. The front office (i.e. Tal Smith) was letting it slip that it was all in Richard’s head and that he was lazy.
On July 30, 1980 Richard collapsed on the Astrodome turf while playing catch. He had suffered a massive stroke. And for weeks, the question wasn’t whether Richard would ever pitch again; it was whether he would live. He lived, and he tried to make a comeback, but he never made it back to the majors and retired in 1983.
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/.....retire.php
Just want all of you to know I am reading these “lazy” comments, while consuming a soft drink out of my antique In-And-Out Burger\Pepsi\Warner Bros. “Slo-Poke Rodriquez” glass.
86 –
Ideally, the AAA lineup would be:
C – Murphy
1b – Murton
2b – Joseph
SS – Maruzack
3b – Adams
LF – Almonte
CF – Almonte
RF – Mesa
Instead you’ll have guys the likes of Matt Diaz, Dan Johnson, etc…guys who, if they don’t make the squad out of spring training, won’t likely be heard from during the season because they require addition to the 40 man, guys who have no trade value.
jacksquat January 28th, 2013 at 1:43 pm
And btw, I’m probably the only one arguing this here because look at all the hell I’m catching just for raising the subject.
That said, I’m done with this conversation. If either direct or indirect accusations of racism, bigotry, sexism etc. continue getting thrown around like parking tickets, I’ll just email Chad instead of objecting.
———————————
You’re catching hell because you’re acting as though you’re being attacked when you aren’t. Not even a little bit. Not once!!
At no point were you ever accused, charged with or implied to be a racist. But don’t let that stop you from continuing to act as though you have.
Why won’t someone think of the racists?! Truly the most oppressed group.
How MLB Announcers Favor American Players Over Foreign Ones
http://www.theatlantic.com/ent.....es/261265/
Please actually read this.
If I were an announcer I would favor the good players over the bad ones….is that prejudice?
Depends on what you mean by favor
Jerkface says:
January 28, 2013 at 2:07 pm
Depends on what you mean by favor
Meaning I would say how good the good players are and how bad the bad players are
“If I were an announcer I would favor the good players over the bad ones….is that prejudice?”
I’m not sure, but it could lead to a lot of dead air time.
“I’m not sure, but it could lead to a lot of dead air time.”
I wouldn’t be a good announcer at all….
If you give a fair report of both sides, I don’t see how it would be prejudiced. Now if all your bad players happen to be minorities regardless of their performance…
Jerkface says:
January 28, 2013 at 2:12 pm
If you give a fair report of both sides, I don’t see how it would be prejudiced. Now if all your bad players happen to be minorities regardless of their performance…
No….I would ignore Chris Stewart and a minority bad catcher equally
I think this shows that Sterling isn’t prejudiced. His HR calls are equally goofy irrespective of a player’s ability.
I believe some of you need to go to the dictionary and look up “prejudice”.
I think I spent equal time on Josh Hamilton and Justin Upton this winter
blake January 28th, 2013 at 2:06 pm
If I were an announcer I would favor the good players over the bad ones….is that prejudice?
—
Well, if you are white, you are probably a racist. Maybe not a blatant racist, maybe a closet racist. Maybe you just have a little racism in you that you don’t realize. But no matter how much of a racist you are, you shouldn’t be an announcer. You would only be able to criticize white players, which is pretty useless. If you criticized a non-white player, ever, JAP, YF or JF would probably call your boss and get you fired for being a racist.
Time wasted equally
While there is no difference between race or nationality when it comes to performance-based descriptions, effort-based and character-based descriptions make a big difference. Players born in the US or Canada are 10 percent more likely to be praised for their effort. White players are 10 percent more likely to be praised for their character.
Indeed, it is not so much that announcers are unwilling to praise non-white players, but the terminology they use in so doing falls into a set of pre-defined “code words.” For example, if a player is described as being a “guy next door,” or “regular guy” there is a greater than 80 percent chance that player is white. If a player is described as “impatient” or “over-aggressive,” there is a greater than 50 percent chance that player is not white. This echoes the findings of similar research in the field of print sports journalism.
——————-
Yes, we’re all just making this up for fun..
If I were an announcer I would favor the good players over the bad ones….is that prejudice?
=======================================
Probably a failure to be effective at his/her job than it is anything else.
I think this shows that Sterling isn’t prejudiced. His HR calls are equally goofy irrespective of a player’s ability.
=================================
You got something against old people?
How MLB Announcers Favor American Players Over Foreign Ones
http://www.theatlantic.com/ent…..es/261265/
—————-
Clearly demonstrated by John Sterling when he once described a HR hit by Hideki Matsui as an “A-bomb from A-rod…”
And then 3 seasons later we get Coney with his chopstick call.
Again, you are using the word “prejudice” incorrectly.
Cashman hasn’t cannon balled into then dumpster for a couple of days now….we are due for signing
I really think it’s dumb that MLB is ending the regular season on a Sunday this year. Wednesday’s seemed to be the way to go.
Now they’re going up against the NFL and a weekend setting.
“For example, if a player is described as being a “guy next door,” or “regular guy” there is a greater than 80 percent chance that player is white.
——————-
Yes, we’re all just making this up for fun..”
__
Or a great leader.
“Agree Chad. We can talk a blue streak about it voicing our POV’s on both sides in an endless parade
of ideas but what you said above is the bottom line.
Time will tell the tale.”
mtu-
not really because whatever happens just gets spun.
look at hughes, chamberlain, and kennedy in 2007. they were supposed to be the proof that the yankees were strong on development.
um, that didn’t really work out.
or did it.it ‘s still being debated, so time doesn’t necessarily tell the tale.
i said in 2007 cashman had no clue with young pitchers. nothing has made me change that opinion.
but today, someone will come on and say he does. so how does time tell the tale.
what happened to the killer B’s?
where’s pineda?
time will tell.
i’m not so sure.
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Voyance sérieuse par telephone