The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


For the sake of argument…

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 07, 2013 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Pinch Hitters series is really designed for posts like this morning’s. It’s meant to introduce perspectives and ideas that are very different from mine, and Nick’s post certainly fits the description.

It’s one thing for a reporter or columnist to write that Yankees ownership is alienating part of the fan base. It’s something entirely different for a fan to make that case in 887 words that could have used about 40 exclamation points and a handful of snarling emoticons.

Nick made some perfectly valid points, and he wrote with the sort of in-the-seats passion that this situation demands. But I think it’s part of my job to separate myself from that passion, so in the name of playing devil’s advocate, here are some counter arguments to some of Nick’s central points.

“Winning at all costs is no longer a priority for this management team.”
It’s one of the most common complaints, and the basic premise is impossible to argue. Toward the end of his time truly running the show, George Steinbrenner was significantly outspending the rest of baseball. But that wasn’t always the case during his tenure, and it’s worth acknowledging that the landscape has changed. Baseball has worked to create financial parity, and the Yankees new spending approach is a direct response to CBA rules that weren’t in place under The Boss. It’s also worth remembering that Hank Steinbrenner spearheaded the signing of Alex Rodriguez’s massive contract, and Hal Steinbrenner was largely running the show when the Yankees made their massive offseason splash before the 2009 season. Is this ownership group less committed to winning, or is it simply attempting to make a short-term business decision? Maybe a little of both. Win at all reasonable costs doesn’t fire up the troops quite as much, does it?

“While they were smart in passing on troubled star free agents like Greinke and Hamilton, they were way too conservative in other areas.”
I’m not sure it’s possible to recognize a great signing until we’re given the benefit of hindsight. Mark Teixeira seemed like a safe bet back in 2008 — about as safe as you can find, anyway — but his skills have already declined. Eric Chavez was a great signing last year and Andruw Jones was not, but I’m not sure we could have confidently predicted that outcome when Jones was coming off a terrific second half and Chavez was coming off yet another significant injury. Every move comes with risk, and the risk grows with the size of the deal. Attempting to be smarter about free agent spending — and trying to incorporate more young, in-house options – seems to make sense regardless of total payroll. The Yankees are often ripped for the Rodriguez, A.J. Burnett and Pedro Feliciano contracts, but that’s only fair if it’s accepted that they’re going to have to pass on some similar free agents in order to avoid multi-year busts and give some young guys a chance.

“The Yankees let Rafael Soriano walk for two years and $28 million, even though he did an amazing job filling in for Rivera.”
Soriano was under contract, opted out, then turned down a qualifying offer. The Yankees were suckers for letting Rodriguez back out of one contract and turn it into a larger one. They should have let Soriano do the same thing?

“All of the stinginess and outrageous prices would probably be fine with Yankee fans if the player development department had the slightest idea of how to draft and develop young talent.”
The Yankees inability to draft and develop is way overblown. They haven’t had a high first-round pick in well over a decade, yet they have an above-average farm system, and they’ve been able to pull off the trades for Curtis Granderson, Michael Pineda, Nick Swisher, Xavier Nady, Lance Berkman, Ichiro Suzuki and Javier Vazquez. Clearly not all of those trades worked out, but each required fairly significant prospect capital. The Yankees have taken an aggressive approach in the draft — a lot of high-risk, high-reward guys like Brackman, Culver, Cole and Betances — which has led to a lot of hype (because of the potential) and a lot of disappointment (because most prospects never make it).  I think it’s an an easier argument to say the Yankees have misused their young talent than to say they haven’t been able to find and develop it.

“We will continue to shell out small fortunes for this team. But should we?”
It all comes back to money; whether the Yankees are willing to spend it and whether their fans are willing to spend it. Ownership is in the business of making money. Is it reasonable to ask the Steinbrenners to pour money into payroll regardless of profit? Fans are in the business of cheering for a team — wins are their currency — so is it reasonable to ask them to similarly commit themselves regardless of the team’s record and commitment?

Associated Press photos

 
 

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187 Responses to “For the sake of argument…”

  1. Jerkface February 7th, 2013 at 11:55 am

    I don’t think it appropriate to include the payroll reduction as “savings” for this purpose. I mean, they could reduce the payroll to $100MM and then they’d have $240M in “savings” over two years, right?

    The luxury tax savings I get. But doesn’t the $36M number depend on which teams would otherwise be due luxury tax payments?

    And where’s the add-back for the increased risk of no post-season, decreased regular season ticket sales, downward drag on ticket prices and Yankee paraphenalia and general damage to the brand?

    I agree Wave, I do not think simple payroll reductions should count. So in that case you have the 30 million in luxury tax, 45 if you go all 3 years. Then the 36 million in revenue sharing rebates. It will be about 45-50 million if Oakland gets a new stadium next year (which is not likely). This also requires Toronto, Washington, and Atlanta to continue to receive revenue sharing. Unfortunately all 3 teams are poised to make huge runs the next few years so even this is not guaranteed. If none of the top 15 market teams receive revenue sharing then the Yankees get no benefit on that front.

    So, conservatively, for all this austerity you’re looking at 80-95 million in savings over 3 years. This is like 3% of revenues for the Yankees. I don’t think its worth it. The Yankees apparently made nearly as much on their 09 postseason run alone, so I think the increased likelihood of missing the playoffs should be a deterrent.

  2. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 11:57 am

    “One of these options are attractive, but the most harmeful for the long term health is to have him leave for a 35th pick of the draft. What are the chances such a pick will become a major leaguer, much less a productive one?”

    There is no strategy, only tactics designed to keep profits high.

  3. Hassey February 7th, 2013 at 11:59 am

    Off topic, but I am curious to eventually hear Youk’s opinions about K-Long’s suggestions and approach

  4. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    I ask the question once again. Does a “good” picture of Cashman exist ????

  5. Wave Your Hat February 7th, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    “So, conservatively, for all this austerity you’re looking at 80-95 million in savings over 3 years. This is like 3% of revenues for the Yankees. I don’t think its worth it. The Yankees apparently made nearly as much on their 09 postseason run alone, so I think the increased likelihood of missing the playoffs should be a deterrent.”

    blake-

    I obviously have no way of knowing, but I suspect the Yankee hierarchy (leaving aside Cashman) simply doesn’t believe the Yanks could become uncompetitive.

  6. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    @eboland11

    @TarYank6: @eboland11 there is a reason he isn’t used to having a chance to be a starter//has always been brought in as a backup

    LOL… I can’t tell what Boland is trying to say here.. does he think Stewie can be a starter? And I use the term ‘can’ loosely.. I suppose anyone could be a starter if they’re asked to be… but not a very good one.

  7. hornblower February 7th, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    GS was a classless bore. The game should be on the field. If the Yankees are now run like a business and not a toy so be it. It is my choice to shell out money or not. If I like the product I may pay for it but mostly on TV. Why anyone would pay the Stadium prices more than once or twice a year is beyond me?
    I am looking forward to some good young players getting a chance this year or next and I have never regarded a non-championship season as a failure. The game has changed and high priced free agents are not the way to build a team. Only when GS got suspended, thank you Howie Spira’ and the duo of Gene Michael, Buck and were in charge did they set the table for this run.

  8. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    @craigcalcaterra

    Reader sentiment is that Schilling is a liar (or exaggerator). Which, maybe. But why would he drop that bomb? He’s annoying, but not insane.

    ——————

    Maybe Schilling will write a book about it to help him make back some of that money he lost to bad investments.

  9. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    Chad – bravo!

    I’ve thought about Alex and the fact that he may have used again, and I was thinking that it might be a extremely complex issue, if he actually did use again. Yankee fans rail against losing, and the rail against their players when they don’t like what they see. It doesn’t matter that a player is giving his best. If he isn’t perfoming like a wind-up toy, if his productivity is down for too long a period of time, there’s a good chance he will end up being booed. Alex is someone with a lot of deep emotional issues (he’s admitted to that and admitted to seeing psychiatrists/psychologists 5-days a week). I don’t know that I’m going out on a limb here to say that it appears that Alex really needs to be liked and accepted. Well not giving Yankee fans an overall olympian performance, especially when you’re getting paid more than handsomely, is hardly the way for them to show that they like you.

    Are Yankee fans, with their demands for nothing less than teams that will win it all, and an organization that should pay whatever it takes to win it all, are those fans unwittingly complicit in causing players who aren’t made of steel to try to find ways to please them, even if it means resorting to the use of banned substances? Joe Girardi is very supportive of his players and as a former player very understanding of the ups and downs of a season and how players press too hard when they’re trying to get things right. Yankee fans in general, from what I’ve seen, refuse to show the same kind of understanding and support when a player isn’t getting the job done. It appears to me that they are much quicker to turn on their players than fans of a lot of other teams.

    There’s a lot of human nature involved here, much of it unfortunately at loggerheads with other facets of human nature. Fans want their team to win. Players want to win for their fans. Players receive adulation from the crowd when things are going well and scorn when things are not, despite conceivably going out there and giving their best. So players don’t necessarily see their fans as a real support system, rather as a system of support only when things are going well. Most human beings want acceptance and likely do their best work in an atmosphere of encouragement and support. So it all becomes like a dog chasing its tail.

  10. blake February 7th, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    Wave,
    I didn’t write that.

  11. Wave Your Hat February 7th, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    “Wave,
    I didn’t write that.”

    Well you should have, so there.

  12. blake February 7th, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    Chad as always makes objective and well reasoned points….but in this case Im not sure an impartially is media is as qualified to write about the temperature of a fan as an actual fan is. So while they may be valid points….a person can’t really know how a fan feels without being a fan

  13. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    Culver was more like high risk and no reward from what I read, though I am not a scout by any means.

  14. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    Chad, a little rose colored glasses syndrome with your analysis.

    The organization has done a terrible job in the domestic draft, international signings and trades.

    They are backfilling and hoping. They have handed out more bad FA contracts than any GM except Glen Sather whose rangers are also a middle of the pack organization no matter where they draft.

    You say, “when George was around he was not the game’s biggest spender,who was?

    He too made numerous mistakes with FA’s but money papered over the problem.And while the 4 WS wins in the 90′s cemented his legacy and tactics he had actual baseball people like Gene Michael around to temper his occasional FA lunacy.

    The most important item is besides Cano whom have they developed ,who is playing for the team now and considered a top player at their position since the core group of the 90′s? Someone who is greatly desired by another organization and their value?

    You might also discuss your feelings about not only the current mgmt. team but whether you believe the team and it’s other assets are for sale. Especially with the Fox money and soon to be complete takeover of YES.

    Fox needs this as product as I noted in a previous post,why then would they wish to see a premium product with huge commercial potential be degraded?

    This three headed empire like all great empires will be dust if a competitive game plan with new and improved mgmt. ideas are not instituted.

  15. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    And to answer the question: Gee how do teams ever manage to win games under those circumstances, the short answer is that not everyone is going through bad times at once. When that does happen, sometimes it stays around a while. I wonder if fan support during those times – as opposed to fan derision – would help the team come around more quickly? I’m afraid we’ll never know the answer to that question, at least not in the Bronx.

  16. blake February 7th, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    “Well you should have, so there.”

    Yes I should have !

  17. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    “Ownership is in the business of making money. Is it reasonable to ask the Steinbrenners to pour money into payroll regardless of profit?”

    Is profit really a problem for them, especially when you factor in accrual of equity?

    Simply put, no.

    But ok, max out on profits, but don’t lie to the fans, as Hal recently did, about what percentage the payroll is being cut by.

  18. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    blake, I’m a fan and I agree with everything he’s said.

  19. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    cashmoney, Culver was a cheap signing like this year’s roster!

  20. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    I ‘m looking forward to “Game Of Thrones”. I haven’t read the books, though my wife and daughter have. Favorite character = Aria (sp)

  21. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    I can’t wait until players start outting MLB for PEDs… I think after Schillings remarks we might be on the verge. In the next few years, as more of these guys retire or get shafted from the Hall, I think we’re going to have a floodgate opened.

  22. austinmac February 7th, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    The owners of a major league baseball team should feel an obligation to the city and the fans to field the best team they can field under their economic circumstance. If the owner doesn’t want to do that, sell the team to someone who does.

    They have opted out of the international market in recent years. They have opted out of the free agent market. They seem to have opted out of the trade market.

    If ownership thinks they will be competitive in 2014-2015, they are clueless. They have no catcher, 2B, 3B, maybe no SS, no outfield power at all, one reliable starter, no closer and few set up men. Fill those spots in one year while hoarding money some more. Good luck.

  23. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    The books are well written, read up on it when you have a chance, Donny.

  24. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    Donnybrook, if you want to read a good book, try Game of Shadows.

    ;)

    Later y’all.

  25. Tackelberry February 7th, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    While Culver was clearly an overdraft, maybe the drafting of Hensely last year signaled a change in philosophy as far the Yanks becoming more agressive in the early rounds of the draft. If they’re really serious about focusing more on player development, then its critical they get very agressive with their 3 early picks this June

  26. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    The Culver and Bichette picks were never a high reward situation based on scouting reports. I don’t recall either guy being projected to have monster ceilings.

  27. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2013 at 12:29 pm

    Schilling being Schilling AND working for ESPN = Poisoned Well.

  28. blake February 7th, 2013 at 12:29 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue says:
    February 7, 2013 at 12:26 pm
    blake, I’m a fan and I agree with everything he’s said.

    And that’s your right….as it is for those who don’t

  29. Ys Guy February 7th, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    “So, conservatively, for all this austerity you’re looking at 80-95 million in savings over 3 years.’
    ————————————————————–
    it’s $200 M in savings. which part of it comes from which program doesnt make any difference to the bottom line.

  30. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    trisha, I’ve been a Yankee fan since the 40′s and I assure you we do not change loyalties in difficult times. Let’s remember the teams from 64 to 76 and from 83 to 95 were essentially losers despite George’s tossing money around like confetti.

    The issue here is not solely money,it’s management. Cashman was an intern and a gopher for many years. I suspect his loyalty superceded his competence….and working cheaply for years was a bonus!

  31. G. Love February 7th, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    I understand Chad’s points here and I respect them, but I don’t agree with them. New Yankee Stadium, the cathedral to George, was built on a partnership with fans paying huge price increases year after year to support the best Yankee team we’ve ever seen in our lives. For those prices, we expected them to keep Mo, Jeter, Bernie, Jorge, Andy, etc. happy and in pinstripes for as long as they wanted to play. We never wanted to see those legends finish out the string in a Red Sox uniform or trying to keep it going for the Pirates.

    The Yankees created this monster by making this deal with their fans. You keep paying higher prices and we’ll do everything in our power to give you the best.

    Never once was there a moment when the Yankees said, “Look guys, it’s all too much money and we can’t handle it, can you cut us some slack?”. They just kept increasing the cost of supporting the team and we kept paying because we knew they’d do what it took to sign, trade and develop the guys they needed to keep this rolling.

    What’s happening now isn’t that. We have no starting Catcher and could possibly lose Cervelli to a suspension. We signed a DH who is beat up and hasn’t made it through a full season healthy while not playing the field for many years now. And we’re forced to smile and say we like it because we have no choice. The only other alternative is to stop watching or switch teams which most of us can’t do. I wanted to switch teams when the Knicks let Lin walk and I couldn’t do it. It’s not an easy proposition even when you loathe the owners and the team management.

    The Yankees were never about profit/savings first and the team second.

    That’s what the guest poster is reacting to and that’s what a lot of us are livid about. We knew they were making boatloads of money, but we also knew they were spending to beat the other team. They’d sign International guys and give us Matsui and El Duque when those guys hit. They’d go out and get a deep bench of guys who should be starting on other teams who came here because they wanted to taste what NYC was like in the post season.

    It is what it is. The ball is in the Yankees court. If they continue down this path of profit over performance, it will end with a 2/3rd empty stadium and fans will find other things to spend money and time on.

    The only way they can win in this scenario is if they roll back prices across the board and tell the fans, we want to recoup these savings and pass them on to you.

    Otherwise, they’ll playing Russian Roulette with their franchise and if the next wave of prospects hit speedbumps or bust out, they’ll be a shadow of the Yankees.

    I don’t mind them going all in on development. I just mind them doing it when the guys are still so far away and in many cases are injured or coming off major surgeries.

    It’s a backwards plan in many ways.

  32. austinmac February 7th, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    Trisha,

    Please lay out a reasonble plan to fill the open spots to which I referred in my 12:28 while maintaining even a relatively competitive team.

    I challenge anyone who thinks the Yankees have a plan to lay it out. Simply saying they will figure something out is a response, but it is one that shows there is no path out.

  33. Wave Your Hat February 7th, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    “it’s $200 M in savings. which part of it comes from which program doesnt make any difference to the bottom line.”

    No, it doesn’t make a difference to the expense side of the ledger. It could make a huge difference to the on-field performance and to the revenue side of the ledger, and therefore could make a big difference to the bottom line.

  34. blake February 7th, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    If the Yankee FO had a track record of smarts like the Cards or Rays then fans may feel better about this budget

  35. pat February 7th, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    Just listened to Dr. Andrews on MLB Network promoting a book he wrote about kids and the special concerns and problems their bodies face in specific sports. Sounded like a good reference for parents/young athletes that I wish I had read many years and doctors bills ago.

    Golf is “healthiest” sport for kids and football the most “unhealthy”. At least a 3-4 month break away from the sport every year and no curve balls until you can shave were 2 of the basics he spoke about for baseball.

  36. JobaTipsHisCap February 7th, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    “Winning at all costs is no longer a priority for this management team.”

    good!

  37. blake February 7th, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    “Golf is “healthiest” sport for kids and football the most “unhealthy”. At least a 3-4 month break away from the sport every year and no curve balls until you can shave were 2 of the basics he spoke about for baseball.”

    Golf is also the most expensive

  38. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    blake February 7th, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    If the Yankee FO had a track record of smarts like the Cards or Rays then fans may feel better about this budget

    ——————-

    If their high ceiling players were closer than A or AA it’d be easier to deal with.. this whole situation was just rolled out improperly.

    We do this at my job all the time. We implement a new system that is supposed to streamline things and save money, we lay people off before rolling out the system, the system rolls out and we have no support team to troubleshoot, and we have to hire new employees to pick up the slack. It’s an ass-backwards way to operate. The Yankees are trying to fit a circle into a square. If they just waited another 2-3 seasons to make these philosophical changes they’d be in a MUCH better position.

  39. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    “It is what it is. The ball is in the Yankees court. If they continue down this path of profit over performance, it will end with a 2/3rd empty stadium and fans will find other things to spend money and time on.”

    Their proposed model is defensible, but they don’t have the people in place who can execute it.

  40. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    blake February 7th, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    “Golf is “healthiest” sport for kids and football the most “unhealthy”. At least a 3-4 month break away from the sport every year and no curve balls until you can shave were 2 of the basics he spoke about for baseball.”

    Golf is also the most expensive

    ——————-

    It’s also the easiest way to make money without abusing your body!! Even if you end up in last place in a lot of the tourneys you make like $60-100k!!

  41. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    Golf is also the most expensive

    I was just thinking about that. I recommend swimming and poker.

  42. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    Everyone should applaud fiscal sanity. However “saving” 200mm. with the three headed empire allegedly worth 4-5 billion and the anticipated loss of revenue from attendance, mdse. sales, sponsor unhappiness with YES viewer decline is simply not good business baseball or not!

    I mean,is anyone rushing home to see Kay or Sterling babble to fill air time?

  43. blake February 7th, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    “It’s also the easiest way to make money without abusing your body!! Even if you end up in last place in a lot of the tourneys you make like $60-100k!!”

    True but the problem is that to get good at golf ….good enough make money playing it….you have to play like all the time….and most kids can’t afford to play enough to do that.

  44. randy l. February 7th, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    i’m all for hal having the free market right to do his austerity thing and try to make as much money as he wants.

    i however think he’s abusing his caretaker ownership position and have the free market right to boycott him and to try to take the profit out of his endeavor.

    i encourage others not to enable hal’s cheapness and lack of understanding of what the yankees are all about. if enough people join a boycott the yankees and come down on hal it will make the decline happen sooner and get over sooner.

    i purposely don’t give money to all kinds of businesses i don’t like. i don’t like yankee management and ownership. as far as i know they haven’t got a penny from me in years unless it’s indirectly from mlb.tv in revenue sharing.

    pollyannas and enablers think they help , but they don’t. fire hal. don’t give him any money.
    the yankees need ownership and management change. cut off their baseballs. force them to sell and send hal back to the palm beach country club where he belongs.

    will i watch this year? of course , jeter and mariano are still there. but hal can pay them without any help from me :)

  45. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2013 at 12:44 pm

    Fans are already spending their money elsewhere. The empty seats at Yankee Stadium during the Playoffs proved that. In general, the attendance figures sighted during the regular season are a joke, and the Yanks ain’t the only team fibbing about that.

  46. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    I predict right Now that the Jeet negotiations next offseason are gonna be excruciatingly negative and Nasty. Jeet will decline his option, and all Hell is gonna break loose.

  47. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    Sterling cracks me up, I grew up listening to him … I am looking forward to his Pronk HR calls. It is hiiiiiiiighhhhh ….. farrrrrrrrr…… It is caught! then you have the inimitable Waldman whose sonorous voice and keen insights rivals the games greatest in past, present and probably future.

  48. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    glove, you weren’t serious about rolling back prices were you?

    Contrast this to cable TV were you are “enthusiastically” offered 150 channels and the cost goes up every 6 months,for 140 channels you don’t even want!

    As for golf, golfers keep chiropractors in business and you need deep pockets to get started.

    About the same risk reward as acting! lol

  49. Tackelberry February 7th, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    Jeet is also gonna be 39 next year. At some point he has to be reasonable too no?

  50. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    What would the 3-year savings be if they cut the payroll down towards Astros levels? $500 million? $600 million?

    They would have to be INSANE to walk away from such a huge amount of money!

  51. randy l. February 7th, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    “Golf is also the most expensive”

    blake-

    golf doesn’t have to be expensive. it’s only $600 a year to walk on a beautiful kinks course for me on cape cod. kids have really cheap membership. the problem with golf is when they make it into a country club sport with cart golf.

    not sure what the context was for your comment. why not have kids play as many sports as possible? though? keep the adults out of it and not many are expensive :)

  52. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    blake – Oh yeah, no doubt. I’m just saying if you have the advantage of being able to train your kid in any sport, that’s definitely the best option.

    Most sports are inaccessible to low income kids. Swimming, tennis, golf, crew, etc are all suburban kid things. Most baseball, football, and basketball players are found in private schools. Hockey.. forget it!

  53. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    “it’s only $600 a year to walk on a beautiful kinks course for me on cape cod.”

    Is that all? You really got me. I would play all day and all of the night. But I’m not like everybody else.

  54. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    Maybe Jeter could put together a group like the Dodgers did and buy the team from the Steinkinder and the landscaper brother-in law.

    At least he knows baseball……………..and money!

  55. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    Tackelberry February 7th, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    Jeet is also gonna be 39 next year. At some point he has to be reasonable too no?

    ——————–

    If he’s one of the top 3 most productive players on the team this year, as he was last year, I don’t see why he would be.

    The Yanks must be secretly hoping he, Hughes and Cano have subpar years.

  56. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    600 a year in itself can be a lot for parents just in terms of providing something recreational for their kids.

  57. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    austin, the best I can say is that just because you see it that way doesn’t mean that it will be that way. You have no idea what the Yankees have in mind. Neither do I. And I don’t pretend to be a mind reader. And if the Yankees have a few rebuilding years, big deal. I do believe they have a plan for the future, absolutely, and Hank Steinbrenner said that their intent is to ultimately field a team that can win. If you choose not to believe him, well then you do. I choose to believe him. Because they are not busting the piggy bank to get the players you wished they get doesn’t mean they aren’t trying to field a winning team. Recognize that like it or not, pitching is their priority and they apparently play into the mantra that pitching is the most important facet of the game.

    austin, I’m not here to fight with you. You are entitled to your opinion. I don’t agree with it, and just because I cannot look into a crystal ball and pop out names for you on the spot doesn’t mean there won’t be worthy players in 2014 and 2015!

    I wish I could stick around the debate this, but the only one paying me is me – I’m not drawing a paycheck as the result of an employer’s largesse. So I need to go and earn my money!

    ************

    blake, I’ve never tried to take away your right to total bleakness. I was saying that Chad had taken the temperature of this fan well, without his being a fan. So his opinion probably represents the way some fans do feel.

    ************

    The following saying sums up well how I feel.

    “Don’t spend a lot of time imagining the worst-case scenario. It rarely goes down as you imagine it will, and if by some fluke it does, you will have lived it twice.” Michael J. Fox

    Later.

    :)

  58. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 12:55 pm

    Randy, I’ll bet playing on a “kinky” course is great fun. Do you have to wear clothes??? lol

  59. Tyler February 7th, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    If I could choose any pro sport to have a kid play it would still be baseball. No salary cap = 1 good year = money for 10 years.

  60. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    ?@eboland11

    Rothschild said no setbacks as yet for Pineda during half mound sessions. Could progress to full mound by next week

  61. RadioKev February 7th, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    Erik Boland ?@eboland11
    Rothschild said no setbacks as yet for Pineda during half mound sessions. Could progress to full mound by next week

  62. Tyler February 7th, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 12:57 pm
    ?@eboland11

    Rothschild said no setbacks as yet for Pineda during half mound sessions. Could progress to full mound by next week
    ——————————————————————–

    Until he’s on the YS mound I’m not getting excited with him. Too much disappointment last year.

  63. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    Nick, after some thoughts, I will go 5 games and take the under. still same odds, we can shake on it if you think that’s fair.

  64. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    Trisha, remember always, ” the mind is like a parachute,it has to be open to work”!

    Wishful thinking in the absence of fact and logic may be the stuff of dreams but rarely leads to success.

    Otherwise kind thoughts to you.

  65. RadioKev February 7th, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Great minds, Shame

  66. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    I’m still thinking about it, Cashmoney. Like you, I like to win, and this bet doesn’t scream “winner” to me or even whisper it. But I get that the 4-1 odds are built into that.

    For you kids at home, this is how real sports gambling works. Odds and point spreads are adjusted to attract even action on both sides and the house rakes in the juice.

    Cashmoney, what about 4 games at 3-1?

  67. FiretheUMPIRE February 7th, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    If Pineda can return and be a weapon then a starter can be traded for an OF.

  68. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    RadioKev February 7th, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Great minds, Shame

    ——————

    Oh yea!

  69. pat February 7th, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    3 sport registration cost us about $500 before equipment for each kid so $600 and 1 set of equipment sounds good to me.

  70. austinmac February 7th, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    If they had the Astros payroll they would save nearly $200M/yr. It is crazy not to save that, right?

  71. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    pat February 7th, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    3 sport registration cost us about $500 before equipment for each kid so $600 and 1 set of equipment sounds good to me.

    ———————-

    Crazy.

    I went to public school and after I graduated they had to cut back on a lot of the sports, eliminating entire programs. Now kids have to pay $250 to play any sport. It’s crazy how people get priced out.. it’s really sad.

  72. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    austinmac, were you just riffing on my 12:49 post? If not, that’s spooky and you owe me a Coke.

  73. blake February 7th, 2013 at 1:12 pm

    “pollyannas and enablers think they help , but they don’t. fire hal. don’t give him any money.”

    I agree and have said this before….fans have a right to cheer for the club no matter what ….but they shouldn’t let ownership take advantage of them….hold them accountable if you don’t like what they are doing…. You’re the customer and you’re the people they need to please

    Randy,

    Yea I mean kids can find a way to play golf if they want…..but my point is that elementary schools etc in general don have golf teams where kids can go and play for nothing.

    Golf is sorta like baseball in that it’s part athletic and part aquired skill….the acquired skill part is more weighted than most sports and many kids either don’t have the patience to play enough or money to play enough to get good…..

  74. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    Nick, that’s really too close for comfort… but for giggles, I go 2.5-1 odds on 4 games and under.

  75. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    Also, austinmac, now do you see what I was referring to the other night when I made the reference to the fan boycott?

  76. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    “Waldman whose sonorous voice and keen insights rivals the games greatest in past, present and probably future.”

    I love the way she lectures the fans about her and John always being right, no matter how loony their distorted reality is.

  77. austinmac February 7th, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    Nick,

    I must have been. Coke, but no bar-b-q. At least, none yet.

  78. Ys Guy February 7th, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    leave it to chad to harsh everybody’s buzz with common sense…. :(

  79. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    Pineda winning 4 games would be a push. How about we make it 4.5 games so that 4 would be a winner for you and call it 3.25-1 odds?

  80. austinmac February 7th, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    Nick, I guess I didn’t see that.

    I wouldn’t boycott, but the reality is nearly everyone watches a bad team less. Watching your team regularly lose is akin to visiting Blake in the dental chair without the gas.

  81. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:20 pm

    No BBQ certainly, but at this point it might be appropriate to send me an unopened packet of Arby’s Horsey sauce.

  82. randy l. February 7th, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    “Most baseball, football, and basketball players are found in private schools. Hockey.. forget it!”

    i played hockey almost every day after school on a pond we flooded and shoveled. same with baseball in summer in farmers field. also football. actually if you keep adults out of it , almost all sports can be played by kids.

    and we whooped the high school’s varsity team once when they tried to take over our pond. we were 7th and 8th graders. our pond our rules . hit the log, no lifting the effing puck :)

    i played whiffle ball in maine last week with a 12 year old when the snow was melted and green grass was showing. he hit the crap out of the ball. he’s been hitting a heavy bag since christmas and his weight shift magically got better. i knew it would. nothing is better than hitting a heavy bag to learn how to hit anything. and that goes for golf too.

    playing sports doesn’t need to cost much. it really juts takes a kid and a ball usually.

  83. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    I’m not going to boycott either; I will buy tickets to Yankee games in Oakland. But the call for some form of boycott is out there.

  84. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    deal, Nick.

    Rich, I think it will be a hoot for Frazier and Sterling to do a game together…. Jeter needs to be effervescent just once in his career.

  85. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    You don’t need an overt boycott for there to be a negative economic impact on a team.

    If the team is worse and unexciting, passion wanes, people attend less games, watch less games, buy less gear…

    It happens to every sports franchise that declines, especially in market like NY where the competition for the limited entertainment dollar is strong.

  86. randy l. February 7th, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    “leave it to chad to harsh everybody’s buzz with common sense….”

    chad is from the midwest where fans tend to be low key and on top of t he’s covering a team he didn’t root for. the day he gets a job somewhere else his interest in the yankees stops.

    we’re here. he’s just visiting. just like peter a.

    it’s a job to him.

    not a passion.

  87. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    randy l. February 7th, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    “Most baseball, football, and basketball players are found in private schools. Hockey.. forget it!”

    i played hockey almost every day after school on a pond we flooded and shoveled. same with baseball in summer in farmers field. also football. actually if you keep adults out of it , almost all sports can be played by kids.

    —————————

    I’m talking about kids that are trying to reach the professional level. Nowadays, a lot of kids, in order to get drafted, need to be in good school programs. Have you ever seen Hoop Dreamz? Highly recommend it. Showcases how kids get eaten up and spit out by schools.

  88. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    ” You don’t need an overt boycott for there to be a negative economic impact on a team.”

    Obviously. It’s entertainment and fewer people will pay for it if fewer people are entertained. But I made a flip reference to the fan boycott recently and austinmac was unaware of such a thing. Those reading today are now aware of it.

  89. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    Cashmoney: great, 3.25 -1 on Pineda winning 4.5 games. Same stakes, $20 to your $65?

  90. austinmac February 7th, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    I happen to think our guest poster sees reality more than Chad. Spending money to try to win is smart business. Creating fan anger or apathy is stupid business.

    Developing a good starting pitcher or good positional player is not too much to ask since Cashman’s as rise to power.

    Making a good trade that doesn’t involve taking on a lot of money is also not too much to ask, particularly since we have sen the last of that

    The Yankees have been the ones harshing my buzz.

  91. randy l. February 7th, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    “Randy, I’ll bet playing on a “kinky” course is great fun. Do you have to wear clothes??? lol”

    haha

    links course.

    i think the spirit of gb7 made me have the typo. he’d be laughing like a hyena and would have been all over me.

    one thing i miss about this february on lohud is gb7′s irreverence and humor.
    looking back at last february’s posts, gb7 was all over me on my take on pineda and montero.
    to me it’s the biggest difference on the blog this year.

  92. blake February 7th, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    Chad is a Journalist…he’s not a fan so I wouldn’t expect his opinions ( or at least the published ones) to be fanatical …..

  93. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    Yea, I can see Chad wearing a KC hat, sitting inna box seat all giggly, with his team 20 games Under .500

  94. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    Nick, that’s a fair deal to me. we will work out the prefer payment delivery method later. I be in Vegas in late Sept this year, I can simply meet you in Frisco or whichever.

  95. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    I don’t think anyone will abandon the team for the most part (especially those posting on here).

    But the Yankees also are an organization with a giant chunk of casual fans. Those are the ones they need to keep happy, not us die-hards.

  96. Ys Guy February 7th, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    i never got the impression that chad was a royals fan.

    his comments on stan the man made that seem pretty clear.

  97. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    “Obviously. It’s entertainment and fewer people will pay for it if fewer people are entertained. But I made a flip reference to the fan boycott recently and austinmac was unaware of such a thing. Those reading today are now aware of it.”

    OK.

    I don’t think fans have the ability to sufficiently organize. I’m sure there are some examples: the Saints’ fans wearing bags over the head, calling themselves the ‘Aints’; NY Giants’ fans with that plane carrying a banner decrying 17 years of bad football flying over head in ’78…

    But that type of reaction takes sustained awful play, and the Yankees are unlikely to be awful. They’ll probably just muddle through, again, unless this is all a bluff or they reconsider, or actually show patience to kids and spend and trade more wisely than they have recently.

    So I don’t see a boycott, but I do see some negative economic impact.

  98. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    I hope you have some other reason to visit SF, because traveling here from Vegas to either collect $20 or pay out $65if would seem like an odd economic choice. ;)

  99. randy l. February 7th, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    “I’m talking about kids that are trying to reach the professional level. Nowadays, a lot of kids, in order to get drafted, need to be in good school programs”

    shame-

    yeah, if the goal is the pro game , then yeah , things cost a lot. but 99.99% of kids aren’t pro material so why do they need the big expensive programs ?

    sorry if i’m on topic. i’m procrastinating driving to maine to get there before the blizzard. and i’m not reading comments all the way back.

    this blog is great to keep busy when you don’t want to do something :)

  100. Ys Guy February 7th, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    gb7 is definitely missed!

    Ed Randall’s “Talking Baseball” returns to the WFAN airwaves this Sunday Morning!

    2013 is ON!

    Let’s Go Yankees!

  101. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    I had tentative plan to meet a friend there in Oct, Nick. but we can do paypal or whichever is at your convenience.

  102. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    Rich, I’m not referring to any organized group if fans, just the rhetoric of one or two people on this message board. People can take the rhetoric as seriously as they want to, but that’s what the words mean. I bring it up only in reference to an exchange with austinmac some nights ago. Hopefully he now understands what I was talking about that night.

  103. blake February 7th, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    DONNYBROOK says:
    February 7, 2013 at 1:33 pm
    Yea, I can see Chad wearing a KC hat, sitting inna box seat all giggly, with his team 20 games Under .500

    Chad used to be a Cards fan….and they might be the best run organization in baseball top to bottom …:it’s top 5 anyways I think

  104. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    randy – Don’t I know it! ;)

    But while I agree maybe most kids aren’t pro material, there is probably a lot of talent that just isn’t tapped into. It takes a lot of spent time and money to get that far, and keeps a whole portion of kids out of competing.

  105. Ys Guy February 7th, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    i dont remember ever hearing chad pronounce the word missouri.

    but generally if they say missouri, they’re cards fans

    and if they say missourah they’re royals fans.

    john ashcroft always knew which pronunciation to use in which locale….

  106. RadioKev February 7th, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    blake February 7th, 2013 at 1:33 pm
    Chad is a Journalist…he’s not a fan so I wouldn’t expect his opinions ( or at least the published ones) to be fanatical …..
    ——–

    I think Chad raises good questions and arguments here. His take on baseball isn’t a wildly impassioned one. He journals the stories that arise throughout the season, and poses questions and arguments in a pretty even-tone manner. I always appreciate that.

  107. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    Cashmoney, if you’re coming anyway, that’s fine. Anyway, we have a long way to go before reaching the payout stage, though Larry Rothschild basically dared the Baseball Gods for a setback today.

  108. blake February 7th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    @JimBowdenESPNxm: According to a league source if the Mets were able to sign Michael Bourn it is likely through negotiations w/union pick would be protected

    I think it’s crap if the mets sign Bourn and get to keep that pick….

  109. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Nick

    People vent here, which is what I think most of that talk probably is.

  110. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Chad would select a picture with the easter egg = DeWayne Wise. Another brillant move by the Yankee Brass.

  111. randy l. February 7th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    shame-

    agree that there is lots of untapped talent out there.

    actually if you want to get more kids into sports and save parents money have them cancel their cable bill and limit electronic time to two hours per day :)

  112. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    agree. I am hoping Pineda gets some serious AAA time to regain his lost form :D

  113. blake February 7th, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    “I think Chad raises good questions and arguments here. His take on baseball isn’t a wildly impassioned one. He journals the stories that arise throughout the season, and poses questions and arguments in a pretty even-tone manner. I always appreciate that.”

    Yes….his job is to present material and ask questions objectively ….that’s what journalism is supposed to be but often is t anymore

  114. hardwired7 February 7th, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    “it’s top 5 anyways I think”

    Right now, it’s a clear #1.

    Winning year in and year out and that farm system is LOADED.

  115. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 1:49 pm

    “I think it’s crap if the mets sign Bourn and get to keep that pick….”

    Remember the days when George would read something like that and pull the rug out from under the other team?

    Are you listening, Randy L.?

    Sign Bourn, trade Granderson.

  116. blake February 7th, 2013 at 1:49 pm

    @JimBowdenESPNxm: According to source the intent on both sides were to protect teams with10 worst records rather than the first 10 picks in language

    But the CBA says first 10 picks ….

  117. Nick in SF February 7th, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    ” People vent here, which is what I think most of that talk probably is.”

    Like I said, people can take ot seriously or not, and the original comment I made about it was a flip remark, but again this is in the context of the exchange I had with austinmac one or two weeks ago.

  118. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    Didn’t the Mets only lose it based on some weird conditional pick? I actually think the Mets have a decent case.. I haven’t doubted they’d get him without giving it up, only because Sandy is at the helm.

  119. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2013 at 1:53 pm

    I just wanted to stop in and say Hi… so… Hi.

    … and also that this morning’s “pinch hitter” article was one of the most entitled, whiny things I’ve read about the yankees in years.

    It was no great surprise to find out the kid who wrote it was a 20 and doesn’t live in NY.

  120. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    What up, ID?

    I’m glad to see we still don’t always agree. :)

    TBH, I didn’t read all of it, but I agree with the sense I got that there is something wrong with the way this team is currently run.

  121. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    @craigcalcaterra

    Schilling will not name the person who advised him to take PEDs http://hardballtalk.nbcsports......take-peds/ … via @HardballTalk

  122. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    I don’t love bourn’s skillset, but then if you are the mets, what’s not to love on most of the players if they can give you some credibility back to fan base. Bourn would be mediocre at best once he lose his wheels.

  123. Ys Guy February 7th, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    the mets are looking at an OF of niewenhuis duda and scott baxter.

    bourne looks like babe ruth to them.

  124. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    “Schilling will not name the person who advised him to take PEDs”

    This is as unfair as the leaked reports to New Times, but I don’t blame him for firing a shot across the MLB hierarchy’s sanctimonious, hypocritical bow.

  125. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Rich, if you think Ichiro was a bad investment for 2 years then Bourn is not much better imo at a longer contract length and considerable more dollars.

  126. randy l. February 7th, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    ” I am hoping Pineda gets some serious AAA time to regain his lost form”

    don’t you worry.

    pineda is going to make one heck of a relief pitcher someday, maybe even a closer.

    and if that doesn’t work out, he can be a coach or pitchers covering first base. i’ve never seen a pitcher cover first on his follow through as good as pineda :)

  127. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    “Schilling will not name the person who advised him to take PEDs”

    This is as unfair as the leaked reports to New Times, but I don’t blame him for firing a shot across the MLB hierarchy’s sanctimonious, hypocritical bow.

    ——————

    I mean, Schilling might feel like ‘this guy isn’t the problem so why name him specifically’ and I can’t blame him there. The whole aspect of this a lot of people refuse to look at surrounds the fact that it’s systemic and not the responsibility of any one person or faction.

  128. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    @Deadspin

    Mike Francesa’s first two callers berated him about stuttering and weather forecasting: http://deadsp.in/a43BxAb

    Ahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

  129. randy l. February 7th, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    “Sign Bourn, trade Granderson.”

    rich in nj-

    let me think about that
    i hate to make rash decisions :)

    time to hit the road.

  130. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    Cash

    As with anything, it depends on the price/years, and as I have said, if it was up to me, I would trade Granderson and Cano and take a step back, but if this piecemeal approach is going to rule the day, then I would take Bourn at 30 over Ichiro at 39.

  131. Ys Guy February 7th, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    sounds to me like schilling is setting up a defense for himself in case someone outs him as a PED user.

    maybe someone is writting that RS tell-all book?

  132. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    ^ for two year…

  133. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    I would trade both as well. except, my thinking is if yanks take a step back, a guy like bourn is almost moot.

  134. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    Cashmoney says:
    February 7, 2013 at 2:04 pm
    Rich, if you think Ichiro was a bad investment for 2 years then Bourn is not much better imo at a longer contract length and considerable more dollars.

    Bourn had compiled more WAR than any CF in baseball since 2007 I believe….now a lotnofnthat is his defense but still on a short term deal he’dake the Yanks better IMO if they could turn around and get good value for Gardner or Granderson ….problem is he will cost more than Ichiro

  135. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    Rich in NJ – I can understand disagreeing with certain decisions a team may make (usually in hindsight, not dealing with the facts, etc.), but this top to bottom disdain for Yankee baseball operations that gets touted around here is just bonkers.

    The same complaints come around every off season… How could this team possibly make the playoffs… They are too old/slow/boring/blonde/whatever… 6 months later… oh, they won the most games in the AL again…

    I think they just might have a slight idea of what they are doing. :)

    Are they in a tough spot that they put themselves in (the CBA change was certainly a shock to their status quo)? Sure…

    Are they some how going to not be able to compete for the playoffs because of it? No, of course not… the concept is laughable at best.

  136. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    btw, I really don’t want to see Cano go, but a lot good points had been made as to reasons why any sane yankee fan would. no point rehashing for the gazillionth time.

  137. pat February 7th, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    I think you are giving Schilling too much credit. It’s usually about Curt for Curt.

    Sounds like he’s setting up a case for why he should be a HOFer- I have good numbers and good character. I even turned down PEDs when they were offered to me.

  138. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    “Winning year in and year out and that farm system is LOADED.”

    They just have a pipeline of position players

  139. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    “Sounds like he’s setting up a case for why he should be a HOFer- I have good numbers and good character. I even turned down PEDs when they were offered to me.”

    I think this as well…. The thing that’s annoying to me though is that if he were saying this stuff about the Yankees then it’d be a firestorm and all te attention woukd be on the comments and if they are true…..because its Boston though its mainly just “shut up Curt Schilling talk”……this will be put on the cold case files with Papi’s self investigation and the Mitchell Report

  140. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    @BNightengale: Felix Hernandez on verge of record seven-year, $175 million contract with #Mariners that soon will be official. http://t.co/z4MuOyi5

    Off the ledge Cash…it’s not worth jt

  141. ac1 February 7th, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    Bob Nightengale ?@BNightengale

    Felix Hernandez on verge of record seven-year, $175 million contract with #Mariners that soon will be official. http://usat.ly/Wx39Xr
    ______

    At least he deserves that highest pay unlike Greinke who had one good year.

  142. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    That’s a risky deal for the mariners but hey they are gonna live and die with him

  143. AAA February 7th, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    Felix Hernandez ain’t kidding about wanting to stay a Mariner.

    7 yrs/$175 thru 2019 is the scuttlebut.

  144. G. Love February 7th, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    I actually think the Mets shouldn’t have to surrender the pick. The spirit of the deal was the teams with the 10 worst records get to keep their pick and improve through free agency. Just because the Pirates and Appel couldn’t come to an agreement, which many predicted the moment he was selected, shouldn’t take away one of the lone perks the teams that lose earn.

    God forbid, if this were the Yankees, we’d all be having conniption fits over MLB pushing them out of the protected pick in this scenario.

    The Pirates should get to re-pick, but they should not get 2 cracks at the perks that come along with losing. That’s patently unfair.

    I hope they sign Bourn and get to keep their pick to set a precedent that would help the Yankees if this situation ever presented itself.

  145. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    7/175 is a lot of cash….but Felix will still only be what 33 at the end of that deal?

  146. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    Verlander and Kershaw and reaching free agency either…..never were

  147. Cashmoney February 7th, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    these long term deals rarely works out for the team… but consider his age, command, repertoire and his ability to adapt with lesser stuff, he is as good candidate for it as anyone to receive that kind of deal.

  148. AAA February 7th, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    I actually think the Mets shouldn’t have to surrender the pick.

    ==========================

    They definitely shouldn’t have to. Kinda surprised a group of high price lawyers couldn’t envision this scenario and create language accordingly (“Teams with 10 worst records have picks protected” rather than “the top 10 picks are protected”).

  149. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    Rich in NJ, since you seem to be a minority with respect to the organizational issues mentioned here, perhaps you might share with us why you think otherwise?

    What facts do you dispute from prospects not ready,an aging patchwork pitching staff, a multi million dollar player who may never play again and not very good when he does, a soon to be 40 yr. old S.S, a first baseman who at 33 is announcing he’s fading and in “decline”, an outfield that Houston wouldn’t field,a second baseman who can’t wait to sign a Pujols like deal?

    So exactly why should fans not be discouraged?

  150. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    The CBA says top 10 picks though….it doesn’t say 10 worst records.

    There are a few things they should change about this deal….but to change the language now for one team kinda seems wrong and like they are showing favoritism to me. I don’t reay care that much…..but the rule is the rile and they don’t have to sign Bourn

  151. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    The Mets will remain at the top of the draft, it’s in the stars which they have precious few of! Speaking of empty seats!

  152. Jerkface February 7th, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    I actually think the Mets shouldn’t have to surrender the pick. The spirit of the deal was the teams with the 10 worst records get to keep their pick and improve through free agency. Just because the Pirates and Appel couldn’t come to an agreement, which many predicted the moment he was selected, shouldn’t take away one of the lone perks the teams that lose earn.

    They absolutely should not lose their pick and here is why. The Pirates pick which is pushing them out of the top 10 is not a true pick, and is unforfeitable by the compensation rules to begin with. If the Pirates pick was outside of the top 10, they would not lose it if they signed a comp free agent. There fore, it should NOT mess with the hierarchy for determining which picks are protected. You’re essentially wasting a protection slot on a pick that doesn’t need it.

  153. UnKnown February 7th, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    Why King Felix wants to stay in Seattle is beyond me. I mean 7/175 is a very good reason, but I think he would be able to get that some place else.

    Sorry but the M’s just don’t look like they are going to being a contender for awhile yet, especially because the Rangers, A’s, and Halo’s look to be strong.

  154. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    Blake, you’re absolutely right,people will be “riled” up! Smile!

  155. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    @FakePeteGammons: If Felix Hernandez takes 175 mill from #Mariners does that mean #RedSox can’t trade Iglesias, Bard & Ranaudo for him? This is Peter Gammons

    Oh glove

  156. G. Love February 7th, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    AAA,

    I think whoever drew up the draft rules never imagined a team not signing a top 10 pick with the new draft cap/allotment.

    It’s completely unfair for a team to pass on a top 10 pick, get 2 top 10 picks the next year and bump a team out of the top 10 who had a horrible year and needs to rebuild. That’s not what the spirit of the whole thing was supposed to be about.

    I think it’s a loophole and it’s good that the Mets expose it now before we ever could possibly have to deal with it.

  157. AAA February 7th, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    The CBA says top 10 picks though….it doesn’t say 10 worst records

    =====================================

    Spirit of the rule seems to be ruling the day here. Pirates comp pick is protected by default. Shouldn’t be a factor. Both sides seem to agree on this, so I suspect the ruling will (and should) go the Mets way and that particular clause will be reworded.

  158. jacksquat February 7th, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    I can see the effort here by some posters to shift focus/responsibility away from certain favored players like Arod, Melky, etc., but it fails. It fails because unless MLB teams are strapping players down and sticking needles in them, the players are still 100% responsible for what they put in their bodies. They are adults and it’s their choice.

  159. G. Love February 7th, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    blake,

    I was offering too much for Felix from Boston, right? I should’ve left out Bard since John Farrell gazed at him with his steely eyes and fixed him already.

  160. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    The players definately underestimated the value teams are placing on draft picks these days…..

  161. Jerkface February 7th, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    The top 10 picks are determined by the 10 worst record. The Pirates get an extra pick thrown in there that should be a #b type pick instead of its own number. Mets should keep their pick.

  162. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    Unknown, Seattle has some of the best young arms in baseball and with Montero coming of age should trade the King to a team with major league ready position players. I mean,they managed to outsmart the Yankees,no?

  163. RadioKev February 7th, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:26 pm
    Verlander and Kershaw and reaching free agency either…..never were
    ———–

    Yep.

  164. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    Why not stay in Seattle? Get paid $175 million to win 12 games a year and never pitch a stressful inning all season?

  165. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    G Love,

    I think that’s a big over pay….Igleasias was a top 100 prospect on MLbnetwork!

  166. Jerkface February 7th, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    Why not stay in Seattle? Get paid $175 million to win 12 games a year and never pitch a stressful inning all season?

    Felix’s commitment to never winning is definitely laudable.

  167. jacksquat February 7th, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    Jerkface February 7th, 2013 at 2:35 pm
    I actually think the Mets shouldn’t have to surrender the pick. The spirit of the deal was the teams with the 10 worst records get to keep their pick and improve through free agency. Just because the Pirates and Appel couldn’t come to an agreement, which many predicted the moment he was selected, shouldn’t take away one of the lone perks the teams that lose earn.

    They absolutely should not lose their pick and here is why. The Pirates pick which is pushing them out of the top 10 is not a true pick, and is unforfeitable by the compensation rules to begin with. If the Pirates pick was outside of the top 10, they would not lose it if they signed a comp free agent. There fore, it should NOT mess with the hierarchy for determining which picks are protected. You’re essentially wasting a protection slot on a pick that doesn’t need it.

    But those are the rules now, like it or not. Don’t like the rules, change the rules. But not before they are allowed to be changed, and not rush rush just so the Mets can make a move.

  168. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    “they managed to outsmart the Yankees,no?”

    No.

  169. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    Unknown, how about to the Rangers for Profar ,some outfield help and young pitching?

  170. Jerkface February 7th, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    But those are the rules now, like it or not. Don’t like the rules, change the rules. But not before they are allowed to be changed, and not rush rush just so the Mets can make a move.

    Sorry, but its going to be changed, and it is 100% right to be changed for the reasons I laid out.

  171. UnKnown February 7th, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    Yeah you guys might be on to something there. Different ways of looking at the Felix thing I guess.

  172. Bronx Jeers February 7th, 2013 at 2:44 pm

    @FakePeteGammons: If Felix Hernandez takes 175 mill from #Mariners does that mean #RedSox can’t trade Iglesias, Bard & Ranaudo for him? This is Peter Gammons

    ———————————

    Jed Hoyer would have gotten that deal done. He is a true hero in case you don’t know. His condo’s on the freedom trail.

  173. tomingeorgia February 7th, 2013 at 2:44 pm

    Hello, folks.
    I am presently sitting under the southern component of the Nor’easter coming your way. Raining cats and dogs and blowing pretty good, and the system hasn’t even reached the ocean yet Lay in a supply of your beverage of choice.

    As for Felix’s contract, yeah, he’s young, but he has a couple of hundred thousand miles on his arm already.

  174. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:44 pm

    This is why it’s foolish to plan to spend again on some big free agent class in a theoretical future….. None of those guys may even become free agents

  175. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 2:44 pm

    Irreverent Discourse, No? Please explain why as of this post?

    Unless you are a seer and can discern the future,at this moment would you reverse the trade?

  176. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    tomingeorgia – A great point, how many pitchers have thrown 1600 innings by age 26?

  177. jacksquat February 7th, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    Jerkface February 7th, 2013 at 2:42 pm
    But those are the rules now, like it or not. Don’t like the rules, change the rules. But not before they are allowed to be changed, and not rush rush just so the Mets can make a move.

    Sorry, but its going to be changed, and it is 100% right to be changed for the reasons I laid out.

    I didn’t say it wasn’t right to change the rules, so we can remove that last part as it’s irrelevant.

    Is it proper process to modify the CBA before the next time it’s scheduled to be negotiated? Or does the commissioner have the ability to not follow the agreed upon rules any time he feels like it? If so, then go ahead.

  178. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    “Sorry, but its going to be changed, and it is 100% right to be changed for the reasons I laid out.”

    They should change a couple more dumb ones while they are at it if so

  179. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    comnsnse – “At this moment” has nothing to do with how things were when the trade when it was made. I don’t live in a fantasy world and you shouldn’t either. Who’s to say the Yankees didn’t know Montero’s name would come out of this clinic?

  180. Jerkface February 7th, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    Is it proper process to modify the CBA before the next time it’s scheduled to be negotiated? Or does the commissioner have the ability to not follow the agreed upon rules any time he feels like it? If so, then go ahead.

    If the players union agrees they can do whatever they want to the CBA.

  181. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    Jack Z will wait until a secret scan shows labrum damage on Felix then he will call Cashman and demand everybody

  182. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    blake – At least there is no fake pickoff to third anymore… /sarcasm

  183. Jerkface February 7th, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    And in this case there is no reason the players union should disagree, right now only 9 picks are being protected under the letter of that rule instead of the 10 that should be protected. It is hurting the player’s markets too.

  184. blake February 7th, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    @Joelsherman1: arbitration and wins to protect #Mets 11th pick. Don’t sense Commish Office relenting to help NYM because 1) would mean changing rules (con)

    @Joelsherman1: week b4 spring training 2) Selig doesn’t want to be seen as favoring pal Fred Wilpon yet again 3) Commish Office doesn’t want to aid Boras
    @Joelsherman1: Possible Commish Office could change wording of rule if gets give back from union elsewhere, but more likely would be solved in arb #Mets

  185. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    This way :arrow:

  186. comet February 7th, 2013 at 4:05 pm

    I’m late to the party – What did Schilling say, please?

  187. comnsnse February 7th, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    Irreverent discourse, why are you having such difficulty answering a simple question?

    You believed then and now that a team in desperate need of a RH hitter,the top position prospect in the organization for a pitcher with questionable fitness habits (known at the time) and with a declining performance in the second half of the season was of equal value?

    Now you try to Inject the possibility of Montero peds use to further justify your absurd argument? For shame!


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