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CC not traveling in fast lane for the Yankees

Posted by: Brian Heyman - Posted in Misc on Apr 18, 2013 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

CC Sabathia’s fastball wasn’t traveling faster than 90 mph in the Yankees’ 4-3 comeback win over Arizona Wednesday night (My article here).

The 32-year-old lefty didn’t have his good fastball command early and also gave up a two-run homer on a high changeup in the first. But after throwing 31 pitches to get the opening three outs, he managed to get through another seven, throwing only 77 more pitches. It added up to his third straight quality start — three runs, six hits, one walk, six strikeouts — and his third victory in four tries. His ERA is a tidy 2.57.

So his high-mileage arm, which underwent arthroscopic surgery for the removal of a small bone spur in the elbow back on Oct. 25, can still be effective despite the diminished mph.

“To me, he’s really the same guy,” Joe Girardi said. “He just doesn’t have quite as much velocity. He’s going to use his changeup. It’s very effective. He’s going to use his slider. It’s very effective. He just may not hit the 96s, 97s and 98s that he used to hit. …

“He’s always been a location guy. So I think that helps him.”

Girardi does think Sabathia’s velocity will improve some as the season progresses.

“I think you’ll see 92s, 93s and maybe some 94s,” Girardi said. “I do believe we’re going to see it. It’s just going to take some time.”

Also, Mark Teixeira is getting back in the swing of things and Andy Pettitte’s back is good to go for tomorrow night.

And while Francisco Cervelli didn’t have a great game last night (0-4 with an error), he has gotten off to a good start overall. This is my feature story on him.

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256 Responses to “CC not traveling in fast lane for the Yankees”

  1. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:06 am

    April 18, 2013 at 9:05 am
    Even if Montero busts and never becomes anything they still shouldn’t have traded him….because of the reasons he was dealt and because the teams needs.

    He was traded because they wanted a young pitcher with impact potential and they didnt want to pay for one…..and young offense was and is still something they need.

    They could have signed Yu Darvish and not had to trade anyone and that’s what they would have done if they hadnt been trying to trim the payroll to get below the luxury tax.

    So even if Montero busts and Pineda comes back throwing 98 I still didnt like the thought process or the reasons behind the trade.

  2. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 9:07 am

    “I wish I had a bookie in my office; I would have won.”

    You would have won nothing since I didn’t say I was talking about you perse. However, you seem to always point out those that support the Yankees 100% without taking issue with those that never support Yankee management.

    As to Cashman, you want him gone. Cool, you’re not alone in that regard. I have no problem if ownership makes that change since this is his 8th season in control of baseball operations. With that said, I have a bigger problem with the Yankee ownership because I think they have restricted their baseball operations. I don’t have any proof of that, but it’s a feeling a had for a long time that whomever is the Yankee GM will have some difficulty with the Steinbrenners, Levine and Trost.

  3. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 9:07 am

    Boy. The Yankees sure are reducing expectations on CC’s velo returning to it’s former glory.

  4. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:08 am

    CC just has to improve command and the use of his off speed speed in proportion to the loss if velocity….if he does that the the results will stay close to the same. So far he’s doing that ….

  5. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 9:12 am

    Blake-

    But aren’t you surprised ?

    I mean it was supposedly only a small operation to remove a single bone spur.

    That should not reduce his velo significantly over time should it ?

    It’s not TJS, or Labrum. Those are major.

    Didn’t his Mo-Ness have a similar operation a while back ?

    I don’t believe it caused a 5 MPH drop in velo.

    Maybe there are other issues ?

  6. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 9:13 am

    By the way, I hated the way the Yankees operated in the international market and to a lesser degree in the amateur draft, after Sanchez signing and up to what those three IFA prospects signed last July. They should have been much more aggressive during that time period of 3 years or so. I don’t know who is to blame, Cashman or ownership. Chances are it’s probably a group effort. In any case, the Yankee organization seems to lack the guts to take a gamble if it’s over a low cost pricepoint. The Igawa, Cole, Brackman and other failures have left them gun shy to a certain degree.

  7. ac1 April 18th, 2013 at 9:14 am

    CC just has to improve command and the use of his off speed speed in proportion to the loss if velocity….if he does that the the results will stay close to the same. So far he’s doing that ….
    __

    Agreed. CC is the sort of pitcher that can adjust to lower velocity, like Mussina did. CC is smart and knows how to pitch with the offspeed stuff, plus is good with location. I think CC at 90-92 can still be an ace, maybe even better.

  8. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 9:15 am

    I’m going to give CC until the weather warms up and he’s pitching in relatively hot weather before I say his fastball is in a distinct diminished state. I think mid-May to early-June will be about right.

  9. Tackelberry April 18th, 2013 at 9:15 am

    They could have signed Yu Darvish and not had to trade anyone and that’s what they would have done if they hadnt been trying to trim the payroll to get below the luxury tax.

    _______________________________
    Like that was a sure thing. Darvish was posted, the bids sealed. There was far from a guarrantee the Yanks would have won the bidding unless they went crazy there. Like I said, I do think they should have pushed harder for guys like Chapman, PUig, Cespedes and Soler though.

  10. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 9:16 am

    “The Igawa, Cole, Brackman and other failures have left them gun shy to a certain degree.”

    Is it really that ? I wonder.

  11. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:16 am

    With the Yankees resources they should essentially never traded their top prospects for things they can buy

  12. 86w183 April 18th, 2013 at 9:17 am

    I have no concerns about CC’s velocity since MPH is the most over rated stat in pitching. How often did Greg Maddux his 90+ ? Pettitte? Glavine ?

    I’ll bet as the weather warms he’ll be more in the 92-93 range, which is more than enough.

    Hitting is timing and pitching is disrupting timing. Change of speed and command trump velocity. It’s just that velocity is sexier — AND gives you a little more margin for error.

  13. Tackelberry April 18th, 2013 at 9:17 am

    I was a little surprised that Joe G didn’t pinch hit Ichiro for Wells in the 7th inning against Zeigler. A single there would have netted 2 more runs, but thankfully it worked out later.

  14. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:18 am

    “Like that was a sure thing. Darvish was posted, the bids sealed. There was far from a guarrantee the Yanks would have won the bidding unless they went crazy there. Like I said, I do think they should have pushed harder for guys like Chapman, PUig, Cespedes and Soler though.”

    I said from the beginning it would take more than Dice K got and it did….the Yankees offered less than they did for Igawa so that tells you how hard they pushed for him……..they didnt get involved because they didnt want to spend the money

  15. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 9:21 am

    86-

    I agree w you in regards to velo and Pitching.

    Especially w a guy like CC who has such a great arsenal.

    That said, does the apparent signifcant drop in velocity surprise you ?

    Going from 95 + to 88-90. That’s one heck of a drop. Even if his velo returns to the 92-93 range it’s kind of surprising. To me at least.

  16. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:23 am

    “I have no concerns about CC’s velocity since MPH is the most over rated stat in pitching. How often did Greg Maddux his 90+ ? Pettitte? Glavine ?”

    Velocity is only over rated if you have a guy that is a complete pitcher who can command multiple pitches….for other guys like Ubaldo etc it’s everything and when they lose it they suck.

    CC is a future HOFer and he’s already adapting…. I also think he will add velo as it warms up but as I’ve said with his height he can create a great angle on his fastball and be tough even at 90 mph and if he locating and the CU and slider are working then game over.

    I would guess he’s learned a thing or two from that other old lefty in the clubhouse

  17. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 9:25 am

    “I would guess he’s learned a thing or two from that other old lefty in the clubhouse”

    ;)

  18. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 9:26 am

    Velocity is overrated and command is underrated. Give me a pitcher that can command his low 90s fastball along with his other offerings over a pitcher that can’t command his 95+ fastball or his other pitches.

  19. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 9:28 am

    The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    But given the scenario you posed I agree w you.

  20. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 9:28 am

    Time to walk the Mopheads.

    I’ll catch you all later on.

  21. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:28 am

    Crawdaddy says:
    April 18, 2013 at 9:26 am
    Velocity is overrated and command is underrated. Give me a pitcher that can command his low 90s fastball along with his other offerings over a pitcher that can’t command his 95+ fastball or his other pitches.

    Well yea….velocity gives good pitchers room for error….it doesn’t make bad pitchers good though

  22. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 9:30 am

    “The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.”

    True, but the number of pitchers that has both is small in quantity.

  23. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 9:31 am

    Poor FB command is one of the reasons the highway of broken dreams is litered with guys like Veras,
    Farnsworth, and possibly guys like Joba and Nova.

    :(

  24. pat April 18th, 2013 at 9:31 am

    Retweeted by Andy McCullough, the Star Ledger Yankee beat writer.

    based_ball
    one time I bought a super awesome Czech hockey t-shirt and then it shrunk to half size in the wash and that’s Jesus Montero

  25. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 9:32 am

    Craw-

    That is for sure.

    ;)

  26. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 9:32 am

    “Well yea….velocity gives good pitchers room for error….it doesn’t make bad pitchers good though”

    How about that 96 mph fastball, Hafner turned on last night. The most effective pitch is a well placed fastball and the opposite can by said for one that isn’t well placed.

  27. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:33 am

    based_ball
    one time I bought a super awesome Czech hockey t-shirt and then it shrunk to half size in the wash and that’s Jesus Montero

    The difference is that your tshirt was probably never awesome to begin with

  28. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 9:34 am

    Let’s remember that every major league position player can hit a fastball that’s not placed where it should be even if it’s in the 95-100 range.

  29. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:36 am

    How about that 96 mph fastball, Hafner turned on last night. The most effective pitch is a well placed fastball and the opposite can by said for one that isn’t well placed.”

    Doesn’t make bad pitchers or bad pitches good ones but again it gives good pitchers a margin for error …..you can miss more in the middle of the plate at 98 than you can 91…..that doesn’t mean you can throw 98 mph fastballs down the middle consistently to big leaguers and get away with it but it does mean that if CC for example shows up one day without his command then he would have a better chance throwing 95 than 90…..

  30. MG April 18th, 2013 at 9:37 am

    Watching CC work his way through a lineup 3 or 4X is starting to become as much fun as watch Professor Pettitte do the same thing.

    As blake says, his height helps him a great deal because he’s throwing more downwards than a shorter guy.

    He’ll most likely regain some of the velocity when it gets warmer but his success at 90 couldn’t be better news for the Yankees as it means he should be able to pitch at a high level for a very long time.

  31. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 9:37 am

    Again, you’re talking about high velocity with great command. How many starting pitchers today have those qualities.

  32. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:39 am

    Crawdaddy says:
    April 18, 2013 at 9:37 am
    Again, you’re talking about high velocity with great command. How many starting pitchers today have those qualities.

    No I’m talking about the benefits of velocity …. It is important …. It’s just not everything

  33. Tidrow April 18th, 2013 at 9:40 am

    In regards to CCs’ dip in velocity; i think it’s no big deal. Pettitte has lost velocity and he’s become a much more efficient pitcher using location and change of speeds. Sabathia is a veteran who’s been around the block a few times. He realizes he doesn’t have to throw the ball through a brick wall to win games. Leave that to the energetic, young up & comers who have something to prove. CC is at the stage in his career where he’s putting all his experience to good use.

  34. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:40 am

    Mo has looked like Mo the last two games…..his command wasn’t there early and be just looked rusty a bit….last two games he’s back….incredible

  35. Tackelberry April 18th, 2013 at 9:40 am

    Now its time for Hughes to get back on track. Cmon Phil, we need you!

  36. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 9:42 am

    Of course there is is benefits of having high velocity, but having such can cause you problems too.

  37. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:42 am

    CC when he’s on top of the ball good must seem like he’s throwing off the top of a building to hitters…..when he’s driving it down in the zone then it’s its tough for hitters to square up and hit hard in the air even at 90 mph

  38. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 9:44 am

    I still think CC is working through some mental issues regarding his repaired elbow. I expect him to let loose once the weather gets warmer and his full confidence about his repaired elbow are back. It’s probably subconscience, but it’s a human reaction.

  39. MG April 18th, 2013 at 9:45 am

    there are many ways to pitch successfully in the majors but there is one constant to not pitching well-lack of command.

    If you can’t throw the ball where you want consistently, you aren’t going to pitch well, just look at AJ Burnett’s career.

    Wade Miley, who I would love to have on the Yankees, breezed through 6 innings last night, the Yankees weren’t touching him. In the 7th they got a couple of relatively cheap hits and, for whatever reason (fatigue, nerves, trying too hard) he lost command to Nunez and Nix (as well as the strike zone) and it cost him the game.

    Miley is still very young, he will learn something from last night and it will make him a better pitcher, that’s the path that virtually every top young pitcher has traveled in baseball.

  40. blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:47 am

    @Rotoworld_BB: Jackie Bradley likely headed back to minors http://t.co/cvqVxrCfrR

    Lol

  41. MG April 18th, 2013 at 9:49 am

    blake April 18th, 2013 at 9:42 am
    CC when he’s on top of the ball good must seem like he’s throwing off the top of a building to hitters…..when he’s driving it down in the zone then it’s its tough for hitters to square up and hit hard in the air even at 90 mph
    ————–
    back in the old days (60′s), before the mound was lowered by 5 inches, every pitcher got the same advantage of throwing downhill like CC does today.

    It’s tough to imagine hitting against a guy like Don Drysdale, who was 6’6″, throwing from a 15″ mound and could throw mid-90s with some movement. Plus he was mean lol

  42. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 9:49 am

    Not surprising about Bradley. He’ll be back when he’s ready.

  43. NYYROC April 18th, 2013 at 9:56 am

    Drysdale was mean. So was Gibson. Bill White palyed 1B for STL, he was also NYY radio announcer with Scooter. White was Gibson’s teammate and friend, in fact I think he said they were rommates on the road. Later in his career White played vs Gibson and Gibson drilled him. He couldn’t believe it.

  44. Tackelberry April 18th, 2013 at 9:57 am

    Agree on Bradley. Thats an awfully huge jump, from A ball to the majors. DOn’t know too many that have done that. I still think he’s gonna be a very good player, just not ready yet. Thats why you can’t rush prospects. By theway, anyone have predictions for the upcoming playoff series?

    Knicks over Celtics in 6

    Bulls over Nets in 6

  45. Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 9:58 am

    For those who have seen koufax and pedro, I was curious to the opinion of whether those two are comparable in their prime.

  46. blake April 18th, 2013 at 10:02 am

    It’s tough to imagine hitting against a guy like Don Drysdale, who was 6’6?, throwing from a 15? mound and could throw mid-90s with some movement. Plus he was mean lol”

    No doubt

  47. fantasygame101 April 18th, 2013 at 10:02 am

    if gameday is accurate then there maybe a problem. His changeup and fastball are of the same velocity. He must throw his slider on the low 80s max to be effective.

  48. Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 10:04 am

    http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play......8;c_id=mlb

    Yanks are facing this lefty tonight.

  49. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 10:04 am

    There is a direct correlation to velocity and pitcher effectiveness. We went through this with Pineda. Yes, some pitchers can get away with low velocity and be very effective, no most pitchers with low velocity are not as effective as guys with higher velocity.

  50. MG April 18th, 2013 at 10:07 am

    Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 9:58 am
    For those who have seen koufax and pedro, I was curious to the opinion of whether those two are comparable in their prime.
    ——————————
    Martinez had 5 great years but they weren’t consecutive.

    Koufax was basically unhittable once he figured out how to throw strikes consistently.

    As for being comparable, Koufax is the best pitcher I’ve ever seen, I don’t know where I would put Martinez…

  51. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 10:07 am

    Jerkface, are you old enough to have seen pitchers in the from the 60s to 80s?

  52. Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 10:08 am

    Thanks MG.

  53. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 10:09 am

    CC is working with 2 mph less than he had last year which was already a big decline from his other years on the Yankees. He has good breaking stuff, and in general pretty good command though its not elite, so he should be ok.

  54. astrocityfan April 18th, 2013 at 10:10 am

    thoughts and prayers with the folks in texas. Looks like nothing more than an industrial accident but wow! The explosion registered 2.1, like a low magnitude earthquake.

  55. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 10:10 am

    “As for being comparable, Koufax is the best pitcher I’ve ever seen, I don’t know where I would put Martinez…”

    Koufax didn’t have the benefit of learning his craft in the minors. He was the most dominate pitcher I ever saw and it broke my heart when he retired so young.

  56. Crawdaddy April 18th, 2013 at 10:11 am

    I can still remember Koufax’s last game when Willie Davis kept making those errors in the outfield against the Orioles in the WS.

  57. Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 10:12 am

    We went through this with Pineda. Yes, some pitchers can get away with low velocity and be very effective
    ——
    Jerky, my assumption is this, most pitcher don’t have perfect command or even great command, higher velocity with all things equal gives you the marginal edge. without having concrete data to back me up, I would venture to say that hitters starting having trouble in making consistent contacts if you are dealing 95 and above consistently with some form of location.

  58. MG April 18th, 2013 at 10:15 am

    you can throw up all the statistics you want but the truly great pitchers didn’t need to throw mid-90s their whole careers in order to be great.

    In my lifetime, just to name a few-Whitey Ford, Warren Spahn, and Greg Maddux. Plus Andy Pettitte right now.

    None of us discussing CC are talking about all pitchers, we are talking about one guy who has mastered the art of pitching.

    For him, it doesn’t seem (based on his performance this year to date) like the difference makes any difference.

  59. Hassey April 18th, 2013 at 10:16 am

    of course he’s not travelling in the fast lane – that would make it much harder to pull off the highway into the Burger King rest stops

  60. Hassey April 18th, 2013 at 10:18 am

    well put by MG – “the difference doesn’t make any difference”

  61. 86w183 April 18th, 2013 at 10:20 am

    There is a direct correlation to velocity and pitcher effectiveness. We went through this with Pineda. Yes, some pitchers can get away with low velocity and be very effective, no most pitchers with low velocity are not as effective as guys with higher velocity.

    **************************************************************************

    Ivan Nova throws harder than Kuroda, Sabathia or Pettitte. Mike Mussina won 20 in his ifnal season rarely even approaching 90.

    Farnsworth throws harder than Mariano ever did. There is ZERO proof that velocity alone correlates to effectiveness. Certainly a well commanded 95 MPH fastball is likely to be far more effective than a well commanded 90 MPH heater, but there are too many variables to consider.

  62. blake April 18th, 2013 at 10:27 am

    “There is ZERO proof that velocity alone correlates to effectiveness”

    Nobody said it did….that’s a strawman

  63. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 10:33 am

    Ivan Nova throws harder than Kuroda, Sabathia or Pettitte. Mike Mussina won 20 in his ifnal season rarely even approaching 90.

    Farnsworth throws harder than Mariano ever did. There is ZERO proof that velocity alone correlates to effectiveness. Certainly a well commanded 95 MPH fastball is likely to be far more effective than a well commanded 90 MPH heater, but there are too many variables to consider.

    And Darrel Rasner threw 89 and is out of baseball. When you look at all of baseball, the faster fastball group is on average better than the non-fastball average group. A pitcher without a fastball NEEDS (as in, is a requirement) something very very good to offset it. Mike Mussina did win 20 games with a slow fb, he also had his worst season ever with it, and then retired.

    You do not need to WELL COMMAND a 95 mph fb for it to be effective. If you consistently command an elite fastball you’ll be the best pitcher in the majors, but if you are only average on the command spectrum you will be better off than if you did not have a good fastball.

    All else equal, velocity > not velocity. I’ll try to dig up the link on the correlation study from the great pineda debates.

  64. astrocityfan April 18th, 2013 at 10:33 am

    Pedro was great but I loved to watch Maddux work. Marquis Grissom told a story in SI where Maddux told him that on the third pitch to Gary Sheffield he would need to be at the warning track to catch a flyball. Sure enough on the third pitch of the at bat Grissom had positioned himself at the track and caught the ball flat footed. Maddux said that he had found something that told him just by looking at a rh batters stance what pitch they were looking for. Hard to believe but there are lots of those kinds of stories about Maddux. Considering the stuff he had, he is my pick for best ive ever seen. (im too young for Koufax :) )

  65. austinmac April 18th, 2013 at 10:33 am

    Crawdaddy,

    I agree with you on Koufax. Koufax was beautiful to watch except, of course, at the 1963 Series.

  66. Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 10:33 am

    Giambi can still drive the ball.

  67. DONNYBROOK April 18th, 2013 at 10:36 am

    Sabathia’s MPH drop-off has been Dramatic. It has Not gradually declined, as is normally the case with an aging Chucker. So, you gotta ask yourself what other Dramatic events has CC encountered, which may have contributed to this sudden loss of velocity? (1) elbow surgery, but that procedure was intended to aid the effort to throw a baseball. (2) DRAMATIC Weight Loss. I’m assuming Sabathia’s weight loss was self inflicted, and Not connected to an illness. Either way, I go with CC’s Dramatic weight loss = the Dramatic loss in velocity.

  68. comnsnse April 18th, 2013 at 10:39 am

    Blake and others spending OPM.

    The Yankees are a business….for profit, and while they are in a very competitive business simply can not spend indiscriminately forever.

    Look at the recent outlays of cap dollars for Arod (Hank’s call), Tex (how could anyone predict his rapid decline), Burnett ( desperate call by Cashman because the team had no real pitching prospects they believed in).

    The international market is fraught with potential disasters, has Dice K paid off for the Sox? Irabu, Maeda,Morales,Melian and others for us? Fernandez and Matsui being exceptions while Soriano was actually a Dominican playing in Japan.

    The real problem which some of you acknowledge is the Cashman era where the system has developed few MLB prospects who have done well consistently at the major league level.

    IMO Robertson is the best current Yankee from the farm, while obviously Jackson and Kennedy were traded in a terrible deal because the Yankee’s would rather eat their young and acquire other teams established players.

    This of course is also hindsight!

    Was this not an issue during George’s reign?

    IMO Cashman has ridden the coat tails of organizational success, should be fired along with a questionable minor league operation both domestic and international.

    As I said a few blogs ago I do not expect this to happen since I believe the organization is gearing up for a sale. I expect News Corp to be the major player in negotiations.

    And having said all of the above they will be reluctant to make massive organization changes that might convey any uncertainty and negate value.

  69. Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 10:40 am

    RS have a good pen with some very good arms in it.

  70. blake April 18th, 2013 at 10:41 am

    Pedro is actually a good guy for this velocity topic. When he threw 95 he was the best pitcher in the world because he was the total package….command, velocity , movement , off speed pitches…..he was the best pitcher I’ve ever seen for about a 2-3 period. …..when he started to lose velocity he went from unbelievable to merely good… Then got hurt etc….

    There really isn’t one thing that makes a pitcher good in the big leagues….it’s a whole bunch of stuff out together and velocity is one of those things that certainly helps……and it’s one that can’t really be taught…..that’s why the kid that throws 95 gets drafted and the one who throws 83 doesn’t.

  71. austinmac April 18th, 2013 at 10:42 am

    CC’s diminished fastball is a concern. Will batters realize it and sit on his off-speed stuff? that is not to say you can’t be very successful at 90 mph, but it is much harder. A miss over the plate is hit hard at 90mph.

    CC has done well with it the last three games, but I would still feel better if he was at 92-93.

  72. blake April 18th, 2013 at 10:44 am

    “The Yankees are a business….for profit, and while they are in a very competitive business simply can not spend indiscriminately forever.”

    Regarding Darvish….he would have been huge in NY….and the stuff is there. The rangers did their homework and got a #1 starter for 9 million AAV in his prime…..the Yankees traded their #1 prospect for a project with # 1 potential….

  73. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 10:45 am

    http://www.bbtia.com/home/2009.....rting.html

    Here is the link.

  74. Ys Guy April 18th, 2013 at 10:51 am

    im going to say what i’ve always said about ‘the trade’;

    its a wash.

    i used to get crap from the montero lovers about saying that.

    i think pretty soon all the criticism of that statement is going to be coming from the pineda side…

    …it’s still a wash…

  75. DONNYBROOK April 18th, 2013 at 10:51 am

    I believe we will know More about just how successful CC is gonna be at 90 MPH, when teams face him a 2nd time. Sticks, mentally, take time to adjust to a Flame Thrower that is following a different path. Of course, by the 2nd time around, CC may have packed on a few pounds and increased his MPH. When looking for an example of a Flame Thrower going the soft toss route successfully, Frank Tannana Immediately comes to mind.

  76. pat April 18th, 2013 at 10:54 am

    craigcalcaterra
    Oh, my. This is, oh my. http://firebrandal.com/2013/04.....raham-jbj/

  77. MG April 18th, 2013 at 10:54 am

    DONNYBROOK April 18th, 2013 at 10:51 am
    I believe we will know More about just how successful CC is gonna be at 90 MPH, when teams face him a 2nd time. Sticks, mentally, take time to adjust to a Flame Thrower that is following a different path. Of course, by the 2nd time around, CC may have packed on a few pounds and increased his MPH. When looking for an example of a Flame Thrower going the soft toss route successfully, Frank Tannana Immediately comes to mind.
    ————————-
    Frank Tanana probably threw mid-80s after he hurt his arm, maybe even less, he was in Denny Moyer’s range.

    The direct correlation to CC’s success with his current velocity is Andy Pettitte.

  78. RadioKev April 18th, 2013 at 10:57 am

    CC has one less tool in his bag, but the key for him as always been command.

    When he’s not commanding his fastball, no matter what velocity, he struggles. When he commands the fastball, it sets up all of his other pitches. As long as he does that, he’ll be fine.’

    It’s nice to be able to dial it up to 97MPH which he could do on occasion as a Yankee, but he never depended on that.

  79. DONNYBROOK April 18th, 2013 at 10:58 am

    As I said, if the MPH stays the same, look at teams facing him Part 2.

  80. Ys Guy April 18th, 2013 at 11:00 am

    i love cc but this is why i was against re-signing him when he opted out.

  81. MG April 18th, 2013 at 11:01 am

    time will tell but CC isn’t a one trick pony-as both Al Leiter and David Cone have said many times, it’s the difference in speed between pitches that makes it tough on batters.

    CC has a plus change, if he’s locating that at 80 it makes a 90 fastball look much faster. Add the effective slider and it keeps him as an elite pitcher.

  82. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 11:01 am

    Koufax was the best I’ve ever seen.

    He is one of those Pitchers who had it all velo, command, assortment, movement, deception, smarts.

    Everything he threw was off the charts good. There are not enough superlatives to describe how good he really was.

    His curve was one of the best I’ve ever seen. People sometime forget that he also had an outstanding CU to go w everything else.

  83. blake April 18th, 2013 at 11:02 am

    Wow that’s a hilarious thrashing of Pabe

  84. Ys Guy April 18th, 2013 at 11:05 am

    that being said, i think he’s going to be pretty damn good for a while longer. idk about the out years on that contract, but im not real worried right now.

  85. Against All Odds April 18th, 2013 at 11:06 am

    It can’t be a wash when one player in the trade hasn’t played yet.

  86. G. Love April 18th, 2013 at 11:06 am

    I’m realizing that a lot of my angst towards this team over the past couple of years was truly angst directed at watching Swisher, Tex and Martin hit up close those years.

    I’m not ready to credit the front office with an inspired makeover because I think they’d love to have Tex killing them in the middle of the order against RHP if they had their druthers.

    But, for me, the difficulty was watching guys who were gift wrapped opportunities to win multiple titles come up short because of anxiety and approach in some cases.

    When I think about what the pitching staff and Jeter frankly did last season only to watch those stiffs fall apart in the post season still infuriates me. Ibanez’s late season heroics took the magnifying glass off the lot of them otherwise the team may have missed the playoffs with that group.

    I still wish the Yankees had planned ahead and made smart moves to get younger and more talented so this patchwork quilt approach wasn’t necessary…but I’m enjoying this team more than the past couple of season.

    I just don’t like Swisher, Martin or Tex as players. I like Grandy but his reverting to bad Grandy is pretty horrible to watch. I hope he comes back a more productive player with the bat. He’s playing for a contract so that should happen in theory.

    And I know I’m not alone in hoping Tex’s wrist takes a very long time to get right.

    In the past this team would hit slumps because everyone in the lineup was waiting for the big star after them to do the job. I worry that Tex coming back makes some of the new guys and old guys let up thinking he’ll carry the water for awhile.

    He’s not capable of that anymore. He’s an under .800 OPS 1b now vs. RHP and those guys usually don’t start on your team unless you’re desperate. Treating him like some middle of the order savoir is the hype of stupidity.

    Part of me feels bad not wanting him to get healthy because I think the pattern we’ve seen with him here is he’ll struggle for months, the excuses will pile up, then he’ll hit like Babe Ruth for a 7 game stretch and compile before falling back into the excuses tank.

    Maybe he’ll prove that wrong this year, but I just think his healthy numbers have been declining because of his approach so having this wrist thing as an excuse is just very convenient if his numbers keep plummeting.

    You face RHP way more than LHP in this league. A .230 700OPS hitting 1b usually is on the waiver wire or in AAA. That’s a fact.

  87. Against All Odds April 18th, 2013 at 11:07 am

    Ys Guy April 18th, 2013 at 11:00 am
    i love cc but this is why i was against re-signing him when he opted out.

    —————-

    He didn’t opt out

  88. RadioKev April 18th, 2013 at 11:07 am

    As long as CC is healthy he’ll be fine, that’s the biggest part.

  89. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 11:07 am

    CC will likely be successful w reduced velocity but I have to say it surprises me how much he appears to have lost and how soon.

    There is no question in my mind at least that he would be all that much better w the additional velocity.

    I hope and believe the majority of it will return at some point. It would not make a lot of sense to me if it didn’t as his surgery was relatively minor as far as arm issues go.

    We’ll see.

    ;)

  90. RadioKev April 18th, 2013 at 11:10 am

    Well, he could still be building up arm strength. He will be 33 this year and the dude has thrown a whole ton of pitches. Losing velocity is part of a pitcher’s life.

  91. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 11:10 am

    He didn’t opt out

    He effectively opted out. He threatened to do it until the Yankees gave him an extension.

  92. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 11:12 am

    Kev-

    Not that much this early IMO. The drop is quite large.

    I’m hoping it’s a temporary after effect of the surgery.

  93. Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 11:12 am

    G Love, I get what you saying about Tex, but then you need better and more long term options at either 3b or 1b if Tex is out for long period of time. btw, Overbay’s ops around 700. His approach is refreshing in light of Tex but I think it’s important to realize he is not that good either.

  94. RadioKev April 18th, 2013 at 11:13 am

    He threatened the Yankees with a below market extension! Oh no!

  95. Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 11:16 am

    Internally, I like to see some Musty and Adams at 3b to see where we at… but as long as Overbay gets a single a day, that likely won’t happen. But it would be interesting to see what the Yanks would do, if Tex get hurt again.

  96. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 11:17 am

    He threatened the Yankees with a below market extension! Oh no!

    He got a market value extension. 24.4 million per year for 5 years?

  97. blake April 18th, 2013 at 11:18 am

    “And I know I’m not alone in hoping Tex’s wrist takes a very long time to get right.”

    Do you want an honest answer?

  98. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 11:19 am

    IMO the Yankees need to trust some of their youngsters more.

    And please stop jerking David Phelps around.

    He just happens to be one of the type of low-90′s command type guys you people described above.

    ;)

  99. G. Love April 18th, 2013 at 11:21 am

    Cashmoney,

    I don’t think Overbay is the answer at 1b. I’d love for them to go grab a Morneau or move Youk to 1b and let Musty take a crack at 3b if he’s healthy.

    I think my aversion to Tex would be lessened if Girardi didn’t bat him 3 or 4 against RHP.

    6th or lower would be fine for a guy who is only going to BB or HR to help the team.

    Against RHP, he’s good but this wrist thing just feels like more of the same from Tex where he’ll be abysmal for as long as we can stomach, blame the wrist (rightly or wrongly) and then have a good week just when he’s about to get yanked out of the middle of the order only to go back in the tank when the heat is off. You watch these guys enough and you start to know their patterns.

    Yes, he’s better than Overbay. No doubt about that. But Girardi isn’t hitting Overbay 3-4 in the order so when Overbay comes up the game doesn’t rest on his shoulders if the leadoff guys do their jobs.

  100. blake April 18th, 2013 at 11:23 am

    The yanks do need Tex back vs LHP….badly…..vs RHP…not really

  101. G. Love April 18th, 2013 at 11:24 am

    I meant against “LHP” Tex is good in above post.

  102. RadioKev April 18th, 2013 at 11:26 am

    Jerkface,

    No doubt is it a lot of money, but the belief was he left money on the table. It seems likely that he did, surely having more teams involved would have drove up the price. Here’s the MLB Trade Rumors reaction http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....tions.html

    The author at least speculates he left money on the table.

    It’s hardly a “threat,” because the opt out was known about when he inked the first deal. It’s almost like an evaluation for a raise when it’s the Yankees giving opt-outs, in my opinion.

  103. pat April 18th, 2013 at 11:27 am

    “And I know I’m not alone in hoping Tex’s wrist takes a very long time to get right.”

    Be careful what you wish for. The current roster has logged lots of DL time in recent years and there is still more than 90% of the season to play.

  104. 86w183 April 18th, 2013 at 11:30 am

    Find one instance where CC “threatened” to opt out. You can’t, and it’s irresponsible to accuse him of doing so.

    The Yanks knew he had the option to do so and pro-actively extended him to keep it from happening

  105. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 11:31 am

    If you have an opt out and you get a big extension despite not opting out, then your opt out did the same job that guys like A-rod did with theirs. If CC didn’t want to use his opt out and really liked playing for the Yankees he could have just not opted out and then kept his original deal.

  106. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 11:32 am

    There were lots of articles: CC set to opt out at deadline. Then Yankees make offer to CC to stop him from doing so. Sounds like a threat and a response to me.

  107. champ809 April 18th, 2013 at 11:34 am

    MG April 18th, 2013 at 10:07 am
    Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 9:58 am
    For those who have seen koufax and pedro, I was curious to the opinion of whether those two are comparable in their prime.
    ——————————
    Martinez had 5 great years but they weren’t consecutive.

    Koufax was basically unhittable once he figured out how to throw strikes consistently.

    As for being comparable, Koufax is the best pitcher I’ve ever seen, I don’t know where I would put Martinez…

    ______________________________________________________________

    Correction

    Pedro had a 7yr run that maybe the greatest run by a pitcher considering the league (AL East), era ( steroids ) ever put together by a pitcher.

    He and Koufax both basically cut their teeth in the bigs essentially debuting @ 21yrs old and becoming fulltime starters @ 22,23 yrs old and really coming into their own in their age 25 seasons ( age 26 really for Koufax ).

    Comparing their peak runs Koufax’s best era+ was a 190 in his last year his age 31 season.

    Pedro averaged an ere+ of about 220 during his run and his peak was 291 with 5 of the 7yrs posting an era over 200.

    Over a 7 yr period Pedro pitched to an average era of about 2.00 in the Al East during the late 90′s early 2000′s when as we now know many of the hitters were on p.e.d.s

    In the 99-2000 seasons he threw 431 innings/ 288 hits allowed/ 600 strikeouts/ 69 walks….
    think about those #’s for a second…

  108. 86w183 April 18th, 2013 at 11:39 am

    There were lots of articles: CC set to opt out at deadline. Then Yankees make offer to CC to stop him from doing so. Sounds like a threat and a response to me.

    **********************************************************************

    It was an option available to him, but again there is ZERO evidence he ever threatened to use it. He never said it. His representatives never said it and the Yankees never said it.

    To me “threatened” is a judgmental word that reflects badly on someone’s character. A-rod deserves it, CC does not.

  109. RadioKev April 18th, 2013 at 11:40 am

    Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 11:31 am
    If you have an opt out and you get a big extension despite not opting out, then your opt out did the same job that guys like A-rod did with theirs. If CC didn’t want to use his opt out and really liked playing for the Yankees he could have just not opted out and then kept his original deal.
    ——–

    Is it a threat to ask your employer for a raise? I guess that depends on how you phrase it. There was speculation CC would opt out, but CC always said he loved NY.

    Considering the three options – not saying anything about an extension, saying extend me or I might opt out, or I’m opting out – now make me the best offer, I don’t consider the middle scenario that threatening. I suppose it’s subjective, if you want to go ahead and call it a threat. Sounds like a more negative word to use.

  110. Patrick April 18th, 2013 at 11:42 am

    CC is averaging 89.8 mph on his fastball, last year he averaged 92.3, the year before that well over 93 (which is his career average).

    92.3 isn’t a huge drop from his career number, could just be an outlier but if CC’s velocity continues where it is for the rest of the year that would be an enormous decrease. That being said, I highly doubt his velocity will stay this low all year. His fastball tends to get faster as the year goes on and the weather gets warmer.

    April isn’t even over, we can’t draw any conclusions from CC’s fastball velocity yet.

  111. Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 11:43 am

    Pedro was the best pitcher in my life time, i can say unequivocally. The problem i ran into is how do you compare a guy who log 300 plus innings vs 200 plus. And then, you run into post season performances and the whole era plus thing. The problem in comparing era plus in those two complete different eras is how low can you get? Would Koufax have easily dispatch the big home run hitters of 90s and 2000s because the idea is that his stuff so great it really doesn’t matter who he is facing? Those are the questions we will never know.

  112. UnKnown April 18th, 2013 at 11:45 am

    Very enjoyable Pete Abe bashing in that link. Thanks for posting that Pat.

  113. Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 11:47 am

    G.Love
    If Tex is out for a long period. The ideal candidate is obviously someone who can hit LH/RH equally well and won’t kill you defensively at 1b or 3b. in so many words, a middle of the order guy. For marginal upgrade over Overbay, I would like to see what Musty have or even an Adam. Most likely scenario is yanks will acquire a bat from the outside.

  114. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 11:47 am

    Is it a threat to ask your employer for a raise?

    Yes? But threat is loaded word as 86 said, so if we don’t take it as the loaded meaning of like violence or having anger behind it, yes it is a threat to ask for a raise. You are demanding more compensation, with an implicit meaning that you will be displeased if you do not get it. If CC did not get an extension, he was going to opt out. The threat is that he will opt out. Heyman and others said he was going to opt out, where is that coming from if not his agent?

    And of course, baseball players under contract is a bit different than your standard employment.

  115. RadioKev April 18th, 2013 at 11:50 am

    Well, CC asking anything from you is practically a threat. He’s a big man.

  116. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 11:52 am

    Cash-

    W Sandy’s stuff he could dispatch anyone.

    Past or present.

    I feel confident in saying that whether he actaully faced those guys or not.

    By the way, you may have heard of some the guys he had to face. They are in the HOF.

    ;)

  117. comnsnse April 18th, 2013 at 11:54 am

    Blake, the team needs Tex to justify his remaining years of the contract not simply be a RH bat. He has hit most of his Hr’s off RH pitching and is a tremendous defensive player who wins games with his defense.

    What is not understandable is his comments about his “decline”, at 33?

  118. comnsnse April 18th, 2013 at 11:55 am

    jerkface, I think I’ve seen that commercial! ;)

  119. Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    when I think about it, the guy who would most likely have the greatest impact on this lineup when healthy is probably still Arod. Granted, that’s with huge ifs attach to it. The surer bet is grandy coming back sooner than later.

  120. RadioKev April 18th, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    Is Chad on vacation?

  121. MTU April 18th, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    Kev-

    Chad hit lotto and retired to the French Riviera.

  122. blake April 18th, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    “What is not understandable is his comments about his “decline”, at 33?”

    Pre PED era many players started to decline at 33 if not earlier….he was just being honest….he is in decline….we just forgot that 35 is old for a baseball player because of the last 20 years .

  123. kd April 18th, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    re: pedro. part of me seriously needs to question whether he was ‘enhanced’

    he was 5’11″, 170 lbs. he threw mid to upper 90s. has there ever been another pitcher who did that given his physique? pedro was great but maybe he was a product of that era in baseball

  124. RadioKev April 18th, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    kd April 18th, 2013 at 12:50 pm
    re: pedro. part of me seriously needs to question whether he was ‘enhanced’

    he was 5’11?, 170 lbs. he threw mid to upper 90s. has there ever been another pitcher who did that given his physique? pedro was great but maybe he was a product of that era in baseball
    ————-

    Lincecum is 5’11,” 170lbs, but I guess he uses his fair share of drugs.

  125. kd April 18th, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    kev,

    lincecum hasn’t been able to sustain that velocity. it lasted for maybe three years. he barely cracks 90 some starts

    i know i am not objective as a yankee fan, but i would be shocked in pedro was clean

  126. RadioKev April 18th, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    kd April 18th, 2013 at 12:59 pm
    kev,

    lincecum hasn’t been able to sustain that velocity. it lasted for maybe three years. he barely cracks 90 some starts

    i know i am not objective as a yankee fan, but i would be shocked in pedro was clean
    ————

    Meh. No pitcher maintains that type of speed forever, that’s the point. Lincecum got there, and he was likely clean, so he’s shown it’s possible.

  127. blake April 18th, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    @espn: This is Derek Jeter’s scouting report from High School. The summary at the bottom is spot on -> http://t.co/Op0yK4HqlN (via @HallofFamePrez)

  128. MG April 18th, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    champ809 April 18th, 2013 at 11:34 am
    MG April 18th, 2013 at 10:07 am
    Cashmoney April 18th, 2013 at 9:58 am
    For those who have seen koufax and pedro, I was curious to the opinion of whether those two are comparable in their prime.
    ——————————
    Martinez had 5 great years but they weren’t consecutive.

    Koufax was basically unhittable once he figured out how to throw strikes consistently.

    As for being comparable, Koufax is the best pitcher I’ve ever seen, I don’t know where I would put Martinez…

    ______________________________________________________________

    Correction

    Pedro had a 7yr run that maybe the greatest run by a pitcher considering the league (AL East), era ( steroids ) ever put together by a pitcher.

    He and Koufax both basically cut their teeth in the bigs essentially debuting @ 21yrs old and becoming fulltime starters @ 22,23 yrs old and really coming into their own in their age 25 seasons ( age 26 really for Koufax ).

    Comparing their peak runs Koufax’s best era+ was a 190 in his last year his age 31 season.
    —————–
    everyone see things differently but Koufax was the best pitcher I ever saw, I never had that feeling about Martinez.

    Koufax also finished what he started, 27 complete games in his final season.

    I just checked the splits for his final season, his ERA for innings 1-6, which is kind of comparable to the way Martinez was used (he averaged 6+ innings per start in his prime), was under 1.50 for the whole season (the full season ERA was 1.73).

    Sandy quit after pitching 650 innings over 2 years with 53 wins his last two years, 54 complete games, 13 shutouts, a perfect game, and went 22-1 in his final season when the Dodgers scored 3 runs or more.

    Again, each of us has opinions, this is mine…

  129. G. Love April 18th, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    blake – What about declining at 31,32? Tex declined because he got a ring in his 1st season here and has enough money and control over his future to not really have to get better. It’s why he’ll never be a Jeter, Andy or Mo. They age and still do what it takes to stay on top of their game. Change their swings, their approaches, their training.

    Tex ages a little and crawls into his shell like a turtle and pimps the juice press.

    I can’t feel strongly about that. I’ve seen enough guys realize parts of their game here are suffering and they find ways to rise above it.

  130. jacksquat April 18th, 2013 at 1:20 pm

    Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 12:49 am
    Alright, who woke up The Face ???? I don’t recall mentioning anything about a slider !!!!

    ??? Well then you’re just being flat out wrong. Remember that perfect fastball Kuroda put on the outside part of the plate that Montero knocked over the short porch? He can hit fastballs down and away, but he swings out of the zone too much is the problem.

    Actually the article linked to earlier showed that he is not really swinging at pitches out of the strike zone more than average.

  131. blake April 18th, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    “blake – What about declining at 31,32? Tex declined because he got a ring in his 1st season here and has enough money and control over his future to not really have to get better”

    I don’t think that…..I think his LH swing is just so mechanically flawed that it was always going to age poorly and I’ve said that since they signed hiim….. I think he does try ….. He just isn’t as strong or quick as he used to be and with his swing and the shift it’s all exacerbated

  132. blake April 18th, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    I was hoping he’d be better longer than he has of course though…..

  133. blake April 18th, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    I think everyone would probably agree that Tex is better than Lyle Overbay…..I think part of the thing with him is that his ABs are just so predictable and mostly unproductive from the Left side….which is like 2/3 of the time……he has like 5 outcomes ( pop up, GB into the shift, K, BB, or homer……

  134. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    Tex sucks Blake. Let it go.

  135. blake April 18th, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    So I’m assuming we still may or may not have arrested a suspect in the bombing?

  136. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    It was done on tax day at an event where the families of Newton shooting victims where honored with a moment of silence and had VIP seats like right near where the bombs were set. The constituency in the bomb does not have an al queda footprint – no hydrogen peroxide. Two politicians were mailed deadly poison and the only thing they share in common was they both oppose filibustering of gun legislation.

    This is no big mystery to me.

  137. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    The political climate of recent history is the context. So that’s where logic should be placed – in proper context.

  138. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    This site is sometimes really something. When those of us who were excoriating management over the trade and its complete disregard for the health of the lineup, we were treated like infidels by the Stepford folks.

    Now that Montero is experiencing a slow start, all those people (and some who flatter themselves with being balanced in outlook) can’t stop talking about him and can barely contain their glee that he has faltered out of the gate and are calling it a career at 44 PAs and 23 years of age.

    The same people are strutting “I knew he was over rated….” etc, while their clarion cry here was that Montero was being prematurely declared something he hadn’t yet earned.

    I won’t even begin to address what that thing calling itself Jesus Bustero was last night in here, having just read through it. Interestingly, no one who was staunchly for the trade even troubled themselves about a troll dragging down the “quality” of the blog – as long as he’s on the “right” side of the argument, eh fellas? There was like one objection to the highjack after a great Yankee win…but no one else seemed to mind.

    Considering how well C pitched, Gardner’s great game (with better luck could have been 3 for 4), and that first-pitch PH shot by Hafner, I’m amazed at how some have let their “standards” slip.

    I thought Montero was “none of our concern”? I thought “no one cares about Montero” because he’s not a Yankee any more. Let’s revise that: when Montero is struggling, it’s a Montero blog disguised as a Yankee site.

    When he gets hot – like he did in the second half last season, cutting his SOs nearly in half – THEN the subject here is verboten.

    Got it ;)

  139. ObviousMan April 18th, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    Hate to say it, but this blog has really taken a turn for the worse these past few years. I used to enjoy interacting with commentators here, but there are three problems now.

    1) Every day, every thread, it’s the same content about Cashman and Girardi from the same people. Commentators are certainly entitled to their opinions, but I wish I could read something original here now and then, and instead it’s just a Cash or Girardi hater repeating the same thing for the 1000th time. What’s the point?

    2) Difference of opinion is stifled by the band of Cashman haters with the angriest voices who post most often. Anyone who differs from the party line that Cashman and Girardi have destroyed this team gets clobbered with hundreds of insults and angry responses merely for expressing an opinion. As a result, every commentator who disagrees with the party line leaves the forum, and it just ends up as a bunch of people preaching to the choir. If the party line really wants to convince the world Cash and Joe suck, they’re not accomplishing that goal by driving anyone who disagrees with them out of the forum. You want these guys fired and the rest of Yankee fandom to agree with you? Then man up and debate with others like civilized people without the childish insults or online bullying.

    3) Commentators here take the whole Cashman and Girardi issue way too seriously. It’s as though we’re talking about Hitler and Stalin on here sometimes. The bottom line is, even for a diehard fan, baseball and the Yankees are still just a game. Picking the right prospects, making the right trades, and signing the right guys are not life and death scenarios, like the party line here makes it sound. Why can’t people just have different opinions and have those opinions respected? Honestly, what’s the harm in that?

    Like I said, before the online bullying started from the domineering Cashman and Girardi-hating posters, this was a great place to discuss Yankee baseball. Someone’s got to stand up to the bullies for us to get back to this state. I’m not suggesting we all wear pinstripe-colored glasses with blind homerism. That would be just as bad. But nothing good comes out of this blind hate and bullying, and that needs to change. I hope it does.

    Not trying to start a fight here either. I have nothing, personally, against anyone who expresses an opinion on a message board. I am courteously requesting that the bullying end and that new opinions be respected, even if they are not agreed with. That is all.

    I wish each and every one of you, your family, and your loved ones, nothing but the very best!

    Yours Truly,

    -Rich

  140. Russell Munson April 18th, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    “if gameday is accurate then there maybe a problem. His changeup and fastball are of the same velocity. He must throw his slider on the low 80s max to be effective.”

    Gameday uses formulas and a pitcher’s past data to identify pitches and it’s probably classifying some slower fastballs as changeups since CC has always thrown harder than this.

  141. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    “The door on Montero as a catcher is creaking shut”

    Not my words

    -Buster

  142. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    Rich,

    Nice post. It’s really just like 5 people but they’re so persistent at following up each other’s arguments that the string of uni-mind posts creates the illusion this small minority outnumbers the current and former regulars here who stay out of it. Some fight back, in unorthodox ways, mind you.

  143. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    Discussing Cashman’s and Girardi’s failures is a legitimate topic, here. Too bad if you can’t handle it.

    Fans of teams they root for actually form opinions on how the stewards of those teams are doing, and they talk about them amongst themselves.

    I haven’t even really noticed Cashman/Girardi being “bullied” by anyone of late – most people seem to be in the moment and enjoying the team’s early success. So your complaint seems particularly ill timed.

  144. ObviousMan April 18th, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    J Alfred Prufrock,

    Great screen name btw! That’s a hell of a poem.

  145. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    It’s not discussion according to Rich. He called it bullying.

  146. ObviousMan April 18th, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    Why are you attacking me, J Alfred? I’m not allowed to have a difference of opinion from you? And where did I mention that Cashman or Girardi were being bullied? Please cite that the line where I said that before attacking me.

  147. 86w183 April 18th, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    There’s a pitcher in MLB who has won his last three starts. In those starts he’s pitched 23 innings with a 1.56 ERA with 19 strikeouts and just four walks.

    He’s done that against three teams that all have a winning record when not facing him.

    Who is this stud? Only the guy that the “Chicken Little” brigade on this blog has been whining about all day.

    Can we just enjoy some success once in a friggin while?

  148. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    It’s really just a matter of the most frequent posters not being able to keep their emotions in check and having no internal locus of control, thus the lashing out and hyperbole flung towards the others who disagree or want to move onto a different topic.

  149. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    Thanks. Obviously ObviousMan, I can’t take credit for the poem or the name ;)

  150. comnsnse April 18th, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    Rich/OviousMan, what exactly would you have commenters commenting on.

    Want to discuss the Middle East, immigration,politics other sports, movies, books?

    The macro view of Yankee fans especially those discussing their unhappiness with Cashman is, he is in effect the CEO of baseball operations and therefore to be held mainly responsible for work product as would be any CEO.

    As for Girardi or any manager/coach I for one rarely question strategy. He is after all a major league catcher most of whom have been pretty successful as mgrs.

    And as fans we can not hope to understand all of the nuance that goes into his decision making.

    Now if you’d really like to see a fan base ragging on everyone from the owners to the coach please check the Ranger blog in this paper.

    Everyone is entitled to an opinion and as most posters do if the subject is uninteresting or over done we don’t participate.

    Have a great day.

  151. austinmac April 18th, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    JAP,

    Many on the board think what happened in two weeks predicts a team or player’s future. Montero looked to me like he can hit. He needs to lay off breaking balls off the plate or he will continue to get a steady diet of them. To write him off is foolish, but to know what he will do either up or down is doubtful. Some players progress and others don’t.

    I wish we still had him because I think he will likely hit. Pineda is still, in my opinion, very questionable to have any type of major league career.

    It is also far too early to predict how this Yankee season will go. So far, so good for the additions, but let’s not get too carried away. The best predictor of future performance by a veteran is his recent play.

    The crowds at the games look quite small. Going into the season with the fanbase unhappy and unfulfilled is no way to sell tickets. It is also harder, even for one like me who roots for whoever is in the uniform, to get excited about players who will be gone in a year. Come to think of it, that is most of the team.

  152. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    It’s not 44 AB’s that triggered the hit piece article written by some fan/commentator/analyst in Seattle. It’s the 44 AB’s combined with said commentator observing Bustero all of 2012.

    -Buster

  153. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    Sadly, neither Flores nor JR Murphy played yesterday, but there is nothing sweeter than a morning game, because no one shows up, no t-shirts are flung at you, no mascots dancing on the dugout roofs, no karaoke contests between innings, no ear piercing shrieks unrelated to the happenings on the field.

    They still insist on playing music to smother every silence, but because there’s virtually no crowd, you can hear the breeze and hear the game. Very enjoyable. I wish there were more 10:30 games.

  154. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    I mean you have fans (ahem, Randy) literally rooting for catastrophe so the team will exchange hands and/or ownership fires the guy who traded Bustero.

    :lol:

  155. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 2:10 pm

    Now Randy has all of his mental faculties, he’s just a passionate fan which nobody can fault. I can’t say the same for his tag-team partners.

  156. Doreen April 18th, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    You can also hear the teenage girl cheering section for Tyler Austin. :)

    Where were you sitting, JAP?

  157. comnsnse April 18th, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    Bustero, and what would you have posters discuss since you seem to be above the fray in discussing Cashman in particular?

    Perhaps you have some examples you’d like to share of how well our minor league operation is working ,or perhaps it’s our scintillating draft success or our less than spectacular international scouting department?

    Does your screen name indicate your feelings about a particular player and has anyone “bullied” you about it?

    I mean the Yankees did obtain two sore arms for what baseball America ,scouts and the organization suggested was a terrific RH hitting prospect.

    Maybe they should have had him working at first base to back up our “declining” Tex at 23mm. and act as a DH?

  158. jacksquat April 18th, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    Nice attempt to associate everyone who doesn’t think the trade of Montero was an enormous disaster and that Cashman should be immediately fired because of it, with one poster (“troll”). Of course, that’s ridiculous.

  159. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    Who is this stud? Only the guy that the “Chicken Little” brigade on this blog has been whining about all day.”

    Do you have an example of this whining? Because most of what I have read here has been positive re: CC and that he can still be good with less velocity

  160. Doreen April 18th, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    I got there just about 10 minutes before first pitch and got a nice seat two rows up right next to the Thunder dugout. Right behind the on-deck circle. Really nice perspective from there. I had some trouble finding the radar readings, but finally did.

    It was a very relaxed morning/early afternoon. Great way to spend the day.

  161. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    austinmac, I just want them to at least get to the postseason and manage to take a lead or two into the ninth inning.

    I want Rivera to get the ball in October – I’m sure that’s a universal desire for Yankee fans. Anything else would be gravy.

    Montero has caught an awful lot so far. Wedge said “I pushed him” but now they’re going to peel back some. He also got hit in the head twice in like 3 days. He’s a little battered and tired, I imagine. Yes, he has to lay off offspeed pitches away. He’s also a notoriously slow starter.
    //

    Just based on what I’ve seen, at this juncture, I’m definitely more of a Mason Williams man than a Heathcott man.

  162. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    Bustero,

    What are your thoughts on David Dejesus?

  163. jacksquat April 18th, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    comnsnse April 18th, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    I mean the Yankees did obtain two sore arms for what baseball America ,scouts and the organization suggested was a terrific RH hitting prospect.

    We didn’t trade him for two sore arms.

  164. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    “Just based on what I’ve seen, at this juncture, I’m definitely more of a Mason Williams man than a Heathcott man.”

    I like them both !

  165. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    Doreen April 18th, 2013 at 2:11 pm
    You can also hear the teenage girl cheering section for Tyler Austin.

    Where were you sitting, JAP?
    ///

    I started out behind the plate but moved around based on who was hitting. I like to get different angles on guys like Austin and Heathcott with each AB.

    I did hear the squeaky-voiced rapture directed at Austin, who does have that sort of matinee idol look, I suppose :D

    It was beautiful out there until we got hammered by the sun, wasn’t it?

  166. igotid88 April 18th, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    If Montero is going to be batting in front of players hitting under .200 just like last year. There’s not much he can do. Not saying he can’t or won’t be able to have a good season. But it’s not like Austin Jackson who has Hunter, Cabrera, and Fielder or Trout who has Pujols and Hamilton.

  167. astrocityfan April 18th, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    completely apropos of nothing my wife introduced me to the band Imagine Dragons the other night. Incredible music. if you havent heard start with the song Radioactive. Then try Demons. Thats the order she gave me and i was hooked.

  168. Rich in NJ April 18th, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:17 pm
    Bustero,

    What are your thoughts on David Dejesus?
    _

    Still waiting for answer on that from last night…

  169. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    “We didn’t trade him for two sore arms.”

    One surgically repaired shoulder and a TJS waiting to happen then…..as I’ve said many times value wise I think it was a fake deal and in the long run the Yanks may come out on top…..however given the Yanks resources I don’t think they should ever trade their top prospect for something they can buy…..and they could have bought Darvish and had both

  170. austinmac April 18th, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    86w183,

    The Yankees themselves discussed CC’s velocity decline. Why shouldn’t people on this board? I don’t recall anyone giving a doomsday scenario.

    Why don’t you express your opinion on the subject rather than the people with whom you disagree?

    Obviously, left handed pitchers can succeed with less velocity. Pettitte would be Exhibit one. CC has pitched well with diminished velocity thus far. I think everyone who knows anything about baseball would think more velocity would be a good thing for him. Can he succeed as he is? Of course, but his command must be very good to do so.

  171. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    I like them both too, and I was particularly high on Heathcott after the Lakewood series a couple of years ago.

    Mason’s just less herky jerky, less “efforting” in his play – more of a glider to the ball, that sort of thing. Heathcott’s kind of muscle bound and stocky – don’t think he’s as durable, and I like Williams in CF better. I have seen Williams only once live, though, so it’s based on that Hughes rehab day in Brooklyn.

    Sure, let’s raise up both of ‘em.

  172. Carly April 18th, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    •6-foot-4, 240 pound Oklahoma righty Jonathan Gray is shooting up draft boards. ESPN’s Keith Law had him eighth on March 14th, but now has him as the clear number two player behind another college righty, Stanford’s Mark Appel. Gray, who hit 101 in several recent games according to scouts who talked to Jon Heyman of CBS Sports, was drafted by the Royals in the 13th round in 2010 and the Yankees in the 10th round in 2011, and now projects to go very early in the 2013 draft. Oklahoma head baseball coach Sunny Golloway told ESPN’s Teddy Mitrosilis, “He’s going to Houston or the Cubs, No. 1 or No. 2.”

    Boy did Jonathan Gray shoot up draft boards. At the beginning of the season or pre-season, he was ranked outside the top 30, and I was hoping the Yanks would have another shot at him.

    Sign me up for Aaron Judge or Austin Wilson with one of the three picks :)

  173. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    DeJesus is a bust, Blake.

    -Buster

  174. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    Rich in NJ – dead giveaway was the contempt for Phil Hughes, but that’s now one too many posts from me on the subject.

    Generally, there are at least 3 people here (one a regular-regular) who clearly-creepily have multiple screen names they use.

  175. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    We could sorely use Austin Jackson.

    Hear that, Cashman? You blew that one, bud :D.

  176. Carly April 18th, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    RHP Gabe Encinas: 5 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 3 BB, 5 K, 1 WP, 5/2 GB/FB — 51 of 81 pitches were strikes (63%) … 15 strikeouts and six walks in 17 innings so far

    Another nice start to the season by a class member of 2010

  177. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    Tyler Austin’s going to walk a lot as well as hit and hit for power. He’s just getting started.

  178. Rich in NJ April 18th, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    Yeah, as of now, the AJack/IPK trade may have been Cashman’s worst.

  179. yankeefeminista April 18th, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    I was also at the game. I thought Rondon’s stuff was good, but he had command issues. You can see that he is only a newly minted starter, but if he can command his fb, with that extra velo as a lefty and the pretty good secondary stuff, he might be one to watch if he can make the adjustments. He also threw some good changeups. But overall, needs to command his pitches better, and don’t know if he will.

    Austin is getting pitched around. He did have that nice shot in the third, than barely saw another pitch to hit. I like Heathcott, but Mason was dynamic when I saw him the one time. Heathcott reminds me a lot of Gardner.

    Is the Jesus username a tip off for Dejesus? Slick.

  180. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    True but Ajax doesn’t belong in the same sentence as Montero, Hensley Muelens, Ruben Rivera, Russ Davis, JT Snow, Drew Henson and Eric Duncan.

  181. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    IPK sucks Rich.

  182. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    Hi Bret, are the flowers pretty in Charlotte now?

  183. Yankee Trader April 18th, 2013 at 2:29 pm

    Good afternoon

    From today’s New York Post

    For now, Sabathia said he will continue to try to figure out a way to find the lost velocity.

    “There’s nothing I can do about it,” Sabathia said. “I can’t throw any harder.”

    If you can’t increase his velocity he is going to have to live on the corners and hope that the umpires call strikes like they did with Maddux and Glavine.

  184. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 2:29 pm

    Who is Bret?

    -Buster

  185. Doreen April 18th, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    JAP -

    On a day like yesterday, you have the freedom to walk around as much as you want – great if you are so inclined!

    I was happy for the sun, but the overcast was fine – perfect temperature. I was looking at my arm this morning and it was a little pink – I couldn’t figure out why – but it was exposed for about an hour and I got sunburn! I never ever learn!

  186. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    We can agree whether or not that trade was good for the Yanks ( Granderson one) ….however what is pretty clear is how great it was for Detroit given that they got Ajax AND Max Sherzer in the deal…..Dlmbrowski killed that one

  187. 86w183 April 18th, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    Austinmac —

    That whole conversation took place much earlier this morning regarding velocity and his costly extension and so on.

    I was off-l;ine for several hours and probably should have dropped it, or at least not reacted to an idiotic post about his fastball and change up being the same speed.

    However, I have always stated my position on everything that I’ve commented on.

  188. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    Dombrowski really did well. He nailed us with the Sheffield trade too. Those guys were all garbage.

  189. Carly April 18th, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    At age 32, with just under 2,700 total innings on his arm, it appears CC Sabathia has lost his best fastball. He topped out at 91.2 mph with his fastball last night and averaged just 90.1 mph according to PitchFX, a bit short of the 90.7 mph he averaged during his first three starts. Last year he averaged 93.0 mph. The year before it was 94.7 mph. The year before he became a Yankee it was 94.9 mph. It’s been a gradual decline over the years, just like it was for Pettitte and Moose and Pedro.

    Sounds like similar stuff to Nuno at least fastball wise

  190. Doreen April 18th, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    yankeefeminista -

    I noticed that they weren’t giving Austin anything decent to hit, also backed him off the plate a little, too, no?

    I wish I had your eye for pitching. (I didn’t realize Rondon was not a starter.)

  191. Rich in NJ April 18th, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    Dombrowski is the current version of Stick Michael.

  192. Carly April 18th, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    True but Ajax doesn’t belong in the same sentence as Montero, Hensley Muelens, Ruben Rivera, Russ Davis, JT Snow, Drew Henson and Eric Duncan.

    You forgot Jackson Melian!

  193. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    Rich in NJ says:
    April 18, 2013 at 2:33 pm
    Dombrowski is the current version of Stick Michael.

    He’s pretty good

  194. Jesus Bustero April 18th, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    Agreed, also no coincidence the guys they spend big on (Fielder, Cabrera) live up to the investment.

  195. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    He also got Miggy for Dontrelle Willis

  196. Carly April 18th, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    Dombrowski is the current version of Stick Michael.

    I would go with Brian Sabean, because he served under Stick with the Yankees, but both are very good GMs.

    “With the Yankees, he [Sabean] drafted or signed as amateurs the likes of Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, J. T. Snow, Jorge Posada and Andy Pettitte.”

  197. Doreen April 18th, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    I have AJack on my fantasy team. I love Granderson, and I was happy to get him, but two of my personal favorites were traded away. I just figure you can’t always get what you want, especially when you’re not in control of it.

    One question tough about AJack is where are the stolen bases???? I guess you don’t run when you’ve got the lineup behind him he’s got….?

  198. Yankee Trader April 18th, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    Blake
    From the Atlanta Journal on the Braves going for the long ball and not built to manufacture runs.

    Sound familiar?

    http://www.myajc.com/news/spor.....iss/nXPfD/

  199. yankeefeminista April 18th, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Josh Norris ?@jnorris427 8m
    RT @TBTimes_Rays: #Rays say top prospect Wil Myers was removed from Durham game with right foot contusion, is day to day. @TheManOfSeal

    C. pitched a great game last night. I haven’t read the articles; is there a presumption that the velo won’t return? Last regular season game of last year, C’s fb was sitting 93, and topping at 94. Sinker was 92-93 max.

  200. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    I meant Miggy and Dontrelle for Andrew Miller and Cameron Maybin….both whom have all but busted

  201. Rich in NJ April 18th, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    I like Granderson as a person. As a player, not so much. Not that he’s not good, but he is way too one-dimensional and his defense in CF is average at best, and probably below that.

  202. jacksquat April 18th, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:21 pm
    “We didn’t trade him for two sore arms.”

    One surgically repaired shoulder and a TJS waiting to happen then…..as I’ve said many times value wise I think it was a fake deal and in the long run the Yanks may come out on top…..however given the Yanks resources I don’t think they should ever trade their top prospect for something they can buy…..and they could have bought Darvish and had both

    He was not traded for injured players. They were not injured at the time. If someone doesn’t ever want to trade anything of value for young pitchers then just say so.

  203. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    Blake
    From the Atlanta Journal on the Braves going for the long ball and not built to manufacture runs.”

    I posted a couple of nights ago that the Braves remind me of a lot of Yankee teams…. They are hitting homers and bludgeoning bullpens then handing it over to a game over closer

  204. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    Fem,

    Rondon did throw some nice changeups but he kinda slings the ball. He looks more reliever material to me, but he’s only 25 years old.

    Yeh the Heathcott/Gardner comp is valid. I think Heathcott will be a better hitter.

  205. G. Love April 18th, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    I was surprised to read Pat M and others last night saying Jesus’ big hole was the outside pitch.

    I don’t watch his M’s games, unless they are against the Yankees, but from that brief callup as a Yankee what I was elated about was he was able to hit the outside pitch to right center with power/authority.

    That was actually one of his strengths in his callup.

    It’d be sad to think he lost that ability in Seattle. That’s what was setting him apart from the usual stiffs in our lineup who couldn’t hit that stuff and swung at it like it was a pack of angry bees.

  206. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    “He was not traded for injured players. They were not injured at the time. If someone doesn’t ever want to trade anything of value for young pitchers then just say so.”

    Either way they traded their #1 prospect for somethin that was essentially a project who lost velocity in the 2nd half…..again my issue with the trade was trading at all when they could have just signed Darvish

  207. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    Time to go. Have a good day, folks.

  208. Yankee Trader April 18th, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    YF

    For now, Sabathia said he will continue to try to figure out a way to find the lost velocity.

    “There’s nothing I can do about it,” Sabathia said. “I can’t throw any harder.”
    From NY Post

  209. Rich in NJ April 18th, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    ““With the Yankees, he [Sabean] drafted or signed as amateurs the likes of Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, J. T. Snow, Jorge Posada and Andy Pettitte.”

    There were a lot of people involved, like Bill Livesey.

    But Stick oversaw it.

  210. Doreen April 18th, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    Rich in NJ -

    I was very encouraged by Granderson’s 2011, and extremely disappointed that he reverted to form in 2012. Not a fan of the either a HR or a K and not much in between. But I like being able to root for a “nice guy.” (I will root for creeps too, but not the same way, and will count the days till the creep is gone.)

  211. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    I haven’t read the articles; is there a presumption that the velo won’t return? Last regular season game of last year, C’s fb was sitting 93, and topping at 94. Sinker was 92-93 max.

    Yes its looking like CC’s velocity is going to be significantly reduced this year. It could still be knocking rust off the surgery, but his FB is now 3 mph off last year and 2 mph off where he was in his first few starts last year. And his fastball last year was already 1 mph off the previous year.

  212. jacksquat April 18th, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    I’ll wait until it’s warmer and see CC’s velocity then. It would be better if it came back, it does help at times. It’s nice that he can pitch without it though, at least so far.

  213. Rich in NJ April 18th, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Doreen

    Given his decline before he even got to NY, 2011 has to be viewed as an out of context season.

  214. yankeefeminista April 18th, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    I think last year that Grandy’s defense took a hit. I think in previous years it was above average, and was underrated. Not sure which Grandy D we will get when he comes back and why it wasn’t as good last year as in 2011.

    AJax is the best CF of all of them.

  215. Yankee Trader April 18th, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    Blake

    That article was written because the Braves lost 1-0 yesterday.

    Has Mustelier returned to SWB?

  216. jacksquat April 18th, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    It’s possible that after the surgery CC’s arm is just not quite at full strength yet. There could also be a subconscious hesitation to make 100% effort with the arm.

  217. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    I’ll wait until it’s warmer and see CC’s velocity then. It would be better if it came back, it does help at times. It’s nice that he can pitch without it though, at least so far.

    Flip side of this is that as it heats up his fastball is going to fly further. He gave up a lot of homers last year and that was with a 92 mph fb.

  218. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    That article was written because the Braves lost 1-0 yesterday.”

    Shut down by the other pitcher the rays traded for Myers….

  219. yankeefeminista April 18th, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    JF, it appears to be a big drop though, considering he was hitting 94 in October of last year. I would think more surgery issue, whether or not it is rectifiable, a time thing, than such a huge drop off taking place in 6 short months. Still thinking (hoping) he’ll gain a few ticks.

  220. Rich in NJ April 18th, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    I don’t think it’s out of the question that CC’s velo is down all season and then ticks up a bit next year.

  221. yankeefeminista April 18th, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    YT, Musty’s still in Tampa.

  222. Yankee Trader April 18th, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    YF

    In their prime who was or is the best defensive CF’er you have seen. My vote goes to Andruw Jones who could make all the plays and had a great arm.

  223. Tyler April 18th, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    Drayton Moore took some heat for that trade with Tampa but Shields/Davis really have solidified that Royals rotation so far. The Royals have some really good bats but had their pitching prospects seemed like they were starting to bust. I don’t know if it was smart to give up Odorizzi on top of Myers but if it helps them be competitive, it’s worth it in KC.

  224. blake April 18th, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    I think it was a trade Tampa probably needed to make given where they are ….however I thought it was funny that folks ranked them all winter like losing Shields and Upton wouldn’t hurt them ….they had nothing to replace them with

  225. yankeefeminista April 18th, 2013 at 2:53 pm

    YT, I unequivocally agree.

  226. Tyler April 18th, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    blake-

    I think it made sense for both sides. KC needs to be competitive with the controlled years on guys like Hosmer and Moustakas expiring. I didn’t think losing Myers was a huge deal with the KC outfield but thought Moore gave up a little bit much. Tampa stocked up on more prospect depth which is huge for them but did lose some key guys. Made sense for both teams but I don’t think either team is phenomenal anyway.

  227. Tyler April 18th, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    Rob Refsnyder is tearing it up on Charleston. CWS MVP last year… wouldn’t hurt to have a little more middle infield depth working on up. Seems like his defense needs help though.

  228. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 3:00 pm

    CC developing the change is going to be a difference maker for him going forward if he has no velocity. Though if the velo doesnt come back the Yankees could really use a plus stuff ace in the rotation.

  229. Jerkface April 18th, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    I like Refsnyder, he is supposed to be an all bat guy. Plus he is a korean adoptee, so I hope he makes it! go diversity!

  230. yankeefeminista April 18th, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    Tyler, problem with most of our MiLB infield A+ and higher is they can all hit, but can’t field. (Or vice versa) Trenton infielders have had this problem for quite a few years, and continue to have it. This has especially been the case at 3B.

  231. Yankee Trader April 18th, 2013 at 3:05 pm

    CC developing the change is going to be a difference maker for him going forward if he has no velocity. Though if the velo doesnt come back the Yankees could really use a plus stuff ace in the rotation.
    ———-
    The hope was that CC’s “mirror image” Michael Pineda was going to be that plus stuff ace. :)

  232. Tyler April 18th, 2013 at 3:06 pm

    JF-

    Yeah he’s making a ton of errors at 2nd but having another good bat at a middle infield position is always nice to have. I started following him in the CWS when I saw the Yanks drafted him and I thought ESPN said they were going to move him to the outfield. Regardless, the guy can hit. Should be in Tampa soon.

  233. yankeefeminista April 18th, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    …of course there are starting to be exceptions to that trend.

  234. yankeefeminista April 18th, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    Tyler, he’s also getting more reps b/c Gumbs is out.

  235. austinmac April 18th, 2013 at 3:11 pm

    We have all read about Robertson’s long stride allowing him to be closer to the plate when the ball is released. I must believe a 6’7″ pitcher with longer legs and arms will release the ball closer to the plate as well. That helps CC, in addition to the downhill plane.

  236. Tyler April 18th, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    Fem-

    It definitely does seem that way. I guess if they have the whole package though, they become top 5 prospects like Profar, haha.

  237. Tyler April 18th, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    Pretty sure Gumbs is in Tampa and Refsnyder is in Charleston?

  238. champ809 April 18th, 2013 at 3:16 pm

    Heathcott iw and will be a far superior hitter to Gardner. His base allows him to drive the ball and will allow him to be a legit 15-20 HR hitter when he gets here.

    Gardy has almost no stride and very little hip rotation in his swing and alot of times at the point of contact has both feet off the ground. It’s almost like he hops to pull his arms through the zone….funky.

    Zoilo seems to be putting it together in Scranton pretty quickly….nice to see. In fact Zoilo, D Adams, Corbin joseph and Melky Mesa seem to be coming on in the last week or so.

  239. comnsnse April 18th, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    jack squat, “we didn’t trade Montero for two sore arms”?

    Really Squat, Pineda surgery nothing positive to say at this point, but reminded that prior to the trade he had a poor second half which could have been due to being overweight , arm problems,out of shape and with acknowledged poor work habits.

    Campos, surgery and has not regained his mid 90′s heat to date therefore another possible? Which trade are you “commenting” on?

    I await your comments.

  240. Carly April 18th, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    Tyler, he’s also getting more reps b/c Gumbs is out.

    If you mean Refsnyder, Gumbs is in Tampa, and Rob is in Charleston. Gumbs being out has no bearing.

  241. Rich in NJ April 18th, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    Gardner is a limited hitter, although he is better than I thought he would be because he makes better contact than he did early in his mL career.

  242. austinmac April 18th, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    Gumbs is in Tampa and hitting horribly. He is 0-25 or so last I saw. He is one I have hopes for.

  243. bruceb April 18th, 2013 at 3:23 pm

    David Aardsma ? @TheDA53
    Just had alligator for the first time. Very surprised how good it is! I’ve had shark, rattlesnake, and now alligator #trifecta

    What a great shame that it wasn’t the other way round.

  244. Tyler April 18th, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    austinmac April 18th, 2013 at 3:22 pm
    Gumbs is in Tampa and hitting horribly. He is 0-25 or so last I saw. He is one I have hopes for.
    ———————————————————————

    Yeah he was 3-34 before going on the DL. He’s got tons of upside but is very raw. Yanks haven’t had tons of luck with those type of players recently.

  245. CompassRosy April 18th, 2013 at 3:25 pm

    Doreen ~

    if you’re still around . . .

    The author in the blog pieces you linked earlier is fairly well-respected in the M’s blog-o-sphere but, like most bloggers, what he posts are his opinions based on his observations that may or may not be biased :)

    One thing I know all M’s fans have in common re: their thoughts on Jesus …
    he canNOT run. We used to joke that Edgar ran like he had a piano strapped to his back. In Jesus’s case, it seems more like an elephant ;)

    The rest of the blogs/forums are mixed as to opining what should happen with Jesus . . .
    keep working at the big league level, be sent down to AAA or even be traded

    I’m rooting for him to continue to work, whether it be with the M’s or in AAA, on his defense (even though we know he’ll never be Danny Wilson) and make some adjustments offensively (such that his running issues are moot) because, in the long run, I think the plan/dream is to have him as BuC to Zunino.

  246. Nick in SF April 18th, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    Extra tension on the blog today — is this the sign of an impending Phil Hughes start?

  247. comnsnse April 18th, 2013 at 3:31 pm

    Yankee trader, Best CF defensively of all time?

    Nominees, Paul Blair, Willie Mays, and probably before your time, Pete Reiser,Terry Moore and DiMag to name but a few.

    Other than stats defense is sometimes hard to judge as some players are more instinctive with respect to positioning and smoother.

    A good example would be Mark Belanger of the Orioles at short who made every play look routine vs an Ozzie Smith who was terrific but had the benefit of artificial turf.

    Imo I’ve never seen a better defensive SS that Omar Viszquel.

  248. Doreen April 18th, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    Thanks, Rosy – I appreciate your input. Recognizing that blogs are what they are, you have to question. I did read the comments after one of the articles, and most were kinder than I was prepared for them to be.

    :)

  249. comnsnse April 18th, 2013 at 3:34 pm

    Compass rosy, research a catcher from the 30′s and 40′s named Ernie Lombardi.

    Big, slow but could hit the hell out of the ball.

    Maybe they would trade Montero back to the yanks for Hughes!

    Noesi is a FA not signed with anyone at last look.

  250. comnsnse April 18th, 2013 at 3:35 pm

    bruceb, too funny!

  251. blake April 18th, 2013 at 3:58 pm

    @jnorris427: Rob Refsnyder to Tampa. Francisco Rosario to Charleston.

  252. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 6:25 pm

    Tyler April 18th, 2013 at 3:24 pm
    austinmac April 18th, 2013 at 3:22 pm
    Gumbs is in Tampa and hitting horribly. He is 0-25 or so last I saw. He is one I have hopes for.
    ———————————————————————

    Yeah he was 3-34 before going on the DL. He’s got tons of upside but is very raw. Yanks haven’t had tons of luck with those type of players recently.
    ///

    Tyler, have you seen Anderson Feliz? He’s also having a slow start (weather has sucked and it’s early so I won’t despair about any of these kids). He’s got major tools also. SH too.

  253. J. Alfred Prufrock April 18th, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    The doubles and HR power are not in dispute, but Zoilo needs more glovework. Even he knows that and mentions it.

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