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Punchless Yankees drop series finale vs. Rays

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Apr 24, 2013 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Rays pitching staff is not a secret. The Yankees weren’t caught off guard by facing three excellent starting pitchers this week, but that doesn’t mean the Yankees were able to do much against them. Tonight it was second-year starter Alex Cobb who held the Yankees to just three hits through 8.1 innings in a 3-0 Rays win. In the three-game series, the Yankees managed just one extra-base hit. In two of the games, they were held to total of six hits. Tonight’s lack of offense left Andy Pettitte with his first loss of the season, despite another solid start. The game was remarkably uneventful until the bottom of the fifth when Pettitte plunked Jose Molina, and Brennan Boesch misplayed a rolling single to put runners at second and third with no outs. Back-to-back strikeouts put Pettitte on the verge of a great escape, but Ben Zobrist ultimately ripped a two-out, two-run double to right-center field. Sean Rodriguez then led off the sixth with a solo homer to deep center field, and that was far too much for the Yankees, who head home having split the six games on this road trip.

Associated Press photo

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225 Responses to “Punchless Yankees drop series finale vs. Rays”

  1. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 9:57 pm

    Against All Odds April 24th, 2013 at 9:48 pm
    Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 9:32 pm
    “Shows everyone how important scouting and development is.”

    TB is the state of art. If Hal is really serious about reducing payroll, offering to double the salary of every TB decision-maker, scout, and pitching instructor when their contracts expire would be the smartest thing he could do, and it would save him money over time.

    ————————–

    It would be smart but I think Hal believes in what they are doing when it comes to the farm.
    __

    I don’t think Hal has a clue.

  2. Captain Clutch April 24th, 2013 at 9:58 pm

    Not a surprise. The Yanks aren’t built right now to beat a pitcher with good off speed pitches. Especially not a pitcher with a good change up. All of the extras can only hit a fastball.

  3. sunny615 April 24th, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    who didn’t see this coming this spring?

  4. bruceb April 24th, 2013 at 10:01 pm

    Man am I sick of losing to the effin Rays. Seems like they own us, particularly at the Trop. Mind you, that’s what happens when a weak offense comes up against a sharp young pitcher.

  5. Captain Clutch April 24th, 2013 at 10:05 pm

    Hal has no idea about scouting and the minor leagues. It all starts with the GM and works it’s way on down. The Yanks need a new voice in the front office and the longer that Cashman is the GM the longer it is before they actually build something in the minors.

  6. Pat M. April 24th, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    Doreen brings to mind a philosophy that used to be prevalent back in the 60′s and early 70′s. Clubs did seek out a certain type of player to profile their organizations, almost like a monopoly. I remember while playing HS and Legion ball in Westchester County the Mets had an area scout who would just chase down power pitchers. It got to the point that if we saw him sitting in bleachers we knew we were seeing heat that day. I didn’t think clubs drafted that way as much but the Rays seem to though. Great point Doreen !!!!

  7. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 10:31 pm

    Pat

    What’s the Yankees’ philosophy?

  8. ron April 24th, 2013 at 10:32 pm

    Cashman is no scout.Never was.He should be listening to his scouts,but more importantly,the yankees should have the best scouts,and development staff on the planet.
    Should not cheap out in those areas.

  9. Pat M. April 24th, 2013 at 10:38 pm

    Rich in NJ…..Well for a year or two they were stocking up on pitching and catchers which isn’t a bad way to build an organization.. Then things went south with the Henry pick or there about. Now , ?????? it’s anybody’s guess

  10. Doreen April 24th, 2013 at 10:40 pm

    Pat it just seemed to me that it has to be the scouting part more so than the development part. To me it looks like they have identified thevwaynthry need to pay baseball to be successful. The pitchers they had before they turned things around we’re talented, but it didn’t work. They have focused , it seems to mE, all their resources on finding a particular tupe of pitcher so that the manager could get the most out of all the data that they’ve gathered. It ties Into the defensive shifts. And then they don’t have to worry about overloading on offense because they not need huge run production, just enough.

    But it starts with finding guys who will be able to throw the change up well.

    And it must not simply be a matter of throwing change ups all day long…

    I think when you get down to it, the development part of any organization is dependent upon the human beings they are developing and what they bring to the table to begin with.

    You can’t make a chocolate cake without chocolate. And that chocolate cake will be even better if the ingredients are top quality to begin with. And you have a better chance of making a good chocolate cake if you go out shopping for exactly the ingredients you want to use instead of trying to rely on only what happens to be in the pantry.

    And to really belabor the metaphor, the chocolate cake will be even better if you have an ice cold glass of milk to go complement it (the data used for the shifts).

  11. MTU April 24th, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    Valuing the Farm has gone in and out of fashion in Yankeeland.

    Not much need to value your Farm when you can just buy players.

    Not much value in the Farm when you don’t have a Team in place to properly evaluate it.

    The Yankees are a little behind the curve right now.

    When Stick was around they had one of the best talent evaluators going.

    Who’s doing that now ? Is he/she/ they as good ?

  12. blake April 24th, 2013 at 10:44 pm

    Sucks to lose a game like this but going to the trop in a series facing their 3 best pitchers and walking away with 1 win is far from a disaster…..2 of 3 would have been great but it’s not a nightmare or anything …..this lineup is gonna struggle to score at times all year and tonight they had even less firepower than normal….

  13. MTU April 24th, 2013 at 10:44 pm

    I see a lot of Cobb in Phelps.

    or is that Phelps in Cobb ?

    Oh well, you get what I mean.

    ;)

  14. Doreen April 24th, 2013 at 10:49 pm

    The rays philosophy grew out of not having money to spend, but they didn’t always have this philosophy. At some point they realized they were never going to make the mi ey to compete that way and they did something about it. They HAD to if they had any chance of having a team people would come to see.

    But it took time and finally getting all the right people in place, too.

    You cannot reasonably expect the Yankees to switch the way they have done things for decades in a short period of time, nd you certainly can’t expect the transition to be smooth.

    I give Cashman credit for at least starting the conversation regarding going back to respecting the farm system. But you cannot forget that they are “hurt” by their draft position and by losing picks because of signing free agents.

    They are starting to change the personnel and it may end up they’ll need someone else to see this through

    But anyone who expects this to take a couple of seasons is not being realistic. You can’t replenish an entire system in five years or so. And you can’t ignore the element that not everything is going to go right

  15. Doreen April 24th, 2013 at 10:51 pm

    Oh, and the Rays are definitely a better team than they used to be, but how many wield series have they won? How many division championships?

    And frankly can you see a magician in he Yankees locker room to loosen up the atmosphere???

  16. ron April 24th, 2013 at 10:51 pm

    The yankees should not allow pitchers to even come up unless they have 3 working pitches,and the pitchers should know that they will not make it to the show unless they have 2 pitches,and a changeup so they work hard at it instead of it being impossible to work on it in the majors while trying to win,like hughes.
    How can you develop a changeup while in a penant race,and while you are fighting for a rotation spot?

  17. Against All Odds April 24th, 2013 at 10:52 pm

    Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 9:57 pm
    Against All Odds April 24th, 2013 at 9:48 pm
    Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 9:32 pm
    “Shows everyone how important scouting and development is.”

    TB is the state of art. If Hal is really serious about reducing payroll, offering to double the salary of every TB decision-maker, scout, and pitching instructor when their contracts expire would be the smartest thing he could do, and it would save him money over time.

    ————————–

    It would be smart but I think Hal believes in what they are doing when it comes to the farm.
    __

    I don’t think Hal has a clue.

    ———

    I can see why you feel that way.

  18. blake April 24th, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    The Rays bubble is gonna pop soon….they haven’t drafted all that well the last couple of years and they can’t afford to make up for it in free agency…..they have a couple of good players locked up long term but when they lose Price it’s gonna set them back unless they really swing a good deal for him to replenish their system with top talent …..

  19. MTU April 24th, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    Doreen-

    “The rays philosophy grew out of not having money to spend, but they didn’t always have this philosophy. At some point they realized they were never going to make the mi ey to compete that way and they did something about it. They HAD to if they had any chance of having a team people would come to see.

    But it took time and finally getting all the right people in place, too.

    You cannot reasonably expect the Yankees to switch the way they have done things for decades in a short period of time, nd you certainly can’t expect the transition to be smooth.”

    I agree with this. I think I said so above when I stated that the Yankees were behind the curve because they are used to buying what they need.

  20. Doreen April 24th, 2013 at 10:55 pm

    I asked this before. Does anyone here know what the Yankees spend on scouting and development? Does anyone know, aside from the Rays, exactly what other teams do as far as developing their players? I mean, what is involved in “developing” a player? The word s thrown around, and the Yankees are constantly accused of not being able to do it, but what is it that hey are not doing that other organizations are?

  21. MTU April 24th, 2013 at 10:56 pm

    Ron-

    I agree and I have spoken on that subject many times noting various shortcomings.

  22. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 10:57 pm

    “I give Cashman credit for at least starting the conversation regarding going back to respecting the farm system. But you cannot forget that they are “hurt” by their draft position and by losing picks because of signing free agents.”

    I did too, for a while, but it has been since 2006.

    And they are not hurt by their draft position when the Rays can get Moore in the 8th and Cobb in the 4th, not to mention Shields in the 16th or Wade Davis in the 3rd.

    So draft position is just not a factor.

  23. Against All Odds April 24th, 2013 at 11:00 pm

    Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 10:31 pm
    Pat

    What’s the Yankees’ philosophy?

    ————————

    Power strikeout pitchers which is why they brought in guys like CC and Burnett. Then you have Phil, Joba, Betances, Manny, the trade for Pineda, etc.

  24. Doreen April 24th, 2013 at 11:01 pm

    MTU, I was so busy typing on this iPad that slows me down, so I didn’t read what you wrote.

    That is true. It is not an easy thing to change an organizational philosophy.

    And let me go a step further. If Hal doesn’t put that “cap,” basically taking away the monetary security blanket, they never really would change their philosophy.

    And it may turn out to bE too difficult to do and they may go back.

    But they have not traded their pieces, so I think at the very least HAl is committed to trying to turn things around. You have to start somewhere and as painful as it might be at first, it’s probably best to jump right in rather than one toe at a time.

  25. blake April 24th, 2013 at 11:01 pm

    “So draft position is just not a factor.”

    They have developed some players like Moore and Shields and Hellickson and Cobb etc that were drafted later…..but they also got Price #1 overall and Longoria very high as well…..so basically their 2 best players are guys the Yankees never get a chance to draft…..so that does matter I think

  26. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 11:02 pm

    “Power strikeout pitchers which is why they brought in guys like CC and Burnett. Then you have Phil, Joba, Betances, Manny, the trade for Pineda, etc.”

    Sorry, developmental philosophy. None of those has become more than a #4 to date, and frankly, all have regressed from their heights.

  27. I Am Winning April 24th, 2013 at 11:02 pm

    Rays have had years of picks towards the top of the draft. That is one thing they have an advantage over.

    The Yankees also have several rookie players that went to other teams with plenty of success. Ian Kennedy, Tyler Clippard, Austin Jackson, Melky (wasn’t a rookie when he left.) Those are just a few recent names off of the top of my head. Along with the homegrown talent they have in Cano and Robertson. Plus major league ready, but still unproven longterm guys like Cervelli, Logan, Gardner, just to name a few off of the top of my head.

    I imagine those are the main reasons for the discrepancies between a team like the Yankees and Rays. Moreso than difference in money put toward scouting.

  28. MTU April 24th, 2013 at 11:02 pm

    Doreen-

    “what is it that hey are not doing that other organizations are?”

    The Rays are a good comparison.

    One thing the Rays tend to do is fully season their young guys before they reach the majors.

    As someone pointed out earlier they make sure they hve what they need to pitch so that they do not have to learn as much on the job.

    Another thing I don’t see them doing is yo-yo’ing young guys back and forth between different roles.

    They designate the role for the Pitcher and unles that Pitcher fails they stay in that role.

    They are given a proper look before changes are made. They do not do things out of expediency the way the Yankees have been known to.

    A final thing they do is to make sure that their guys have a sufficient number of MilB innings under their belt before they arrive on scene.

    There are probably other points of departure but those are just some that immediately come to mind.

    ;)

  29. Against All Odds April 24th, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    blake April 24th, 2013 at 10:54 pm
    The Rays bubble is gonna pop soon….they haven’t drafted all that well the last couple of years and they can’t afford to make up for it in free agency…..they have a couple of good players locked up long term but when they lose Price it’s gonna set them back unless they really swing a good deal for him to replenish their system with top talent …..

    —————-

    So that’s why Friedman is trying to pitch a change in how the draft is done.

  30. blake April 24th, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    The needles in the hay stack will always be there in the draft because developing baseball players is such an inexact and unpredictable science…….but it’s pretty clear to me that the scouting is getting better and that those needles are getting harder and harder to find…..

    A greater percentage of the good players in the big leagues were drafted high than not drafted high…..you can go down the list of the stars and most of them were either drafted really high in the first round or were signed internationally and never drafted at all…..

  31. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    “They have developed some players like Moore and Shields and Hellickson and Cobb etc that were drafted later…..but they also got Price #1 overall and Longoria very high as well…..so basically their 2 best players are guys the Yankees never get a chance to draft…..so that does matter I think”

    They spend about 70% less a year. So taken in context, I don’t think it matters much.

  32. I Am Winning April 24th, 2013 at 11:05 pm

    Nova, Hughea, and Phelps are the other major names I don’t know how I missed them.

    While the Rays have no choice but to stick with a young player, the Yankees may look to trade that player for someone closer to major league ready. The Rays obviously just don’t have the means to be flexible like that.

    The Rays are in the minority in this case, not the Yankees.

  33. Doreen April 24th, 2013 at 11:05 pm

    Rich it is a factor.

    They drafted high risk guys or guys with signing issues. Some of those high risk were going to not work out, maybe even all of them.

    And again, it takes time and there is a human element as well.

    I’m not saying they can’t try to draft better. I’m saying the learning curve, including getting tthe right people in pace, is taking longer than anyone thought. If it ends up working out, does it really matter if it took 5 years or 9? Especially if they’re managing to win since 2006?

  34. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 11:06 pm

    “The needles in the hay stack will always be there in the draft because developing baseball players is such an inexact and unpredictable science…”

    When you have drafted and developed the starters they have, I don’t think needles in a haystack is an apt analogy because it devalues a working plan.

  35. MTU April 24th, 2013 at 11:06 pm

    And with that I’d say it just about my bedtime.

    Us old farts need our sleep.

    ;)

  36. Against All Odds April 24th, 2013 at 11:06 pm

    Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 11:02 pm
    “Power strikeout pitchers which is why they brought in guys like CC and Burnett. Then you have Phil, Joba, Betances, Manny, the trade for Pineda, etc.”

    Sorry, developmental philosophy. None of those has become more than a #4 to date, and frankly, all have regressed from their heights.

    —————————————–

    True but you asked and I gave it to you I never said the results were good lol :D

  37. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 11:08 pm

    “They drafted high risk guys or guys with signing issues. Some of those high risk were going to not work out, maybe even all of them.”

    And they traded AJack and IPK, and they ruined Joba.

    Why should they get credit for that?

    I’m sorry, if you haven’t gotten it right in 7 years, it’s time for someone else.

    They win because Jeter, Mo,, Posada, and Pettitte were great beyond all expected timeframes and they spend a ton.

  38. ron April 24th, 2013 at 11:08 pm

    The patriots,and steelers in the nfl have the best system for drafting players.
    They both get the best years out of a player,then let them go,unless they really wan’t to keep them.
    As rich just stated,draft position is not a factor.
    The yankees have to get away from drafting character first,talent secondary.
    Not saying to draft a problem,but get the best talent.

  39. blake April 24th, 2013 at 11:09 pm

    “They spend about 70% less a year. So taken in context, I don’t think it matters much.”

    Yea I mean with regards to the run they’ve had I agree …however this run hasn’t been built on their recent drafts…..it was built on what they did 5 years ago when they were mixing high draft picks with other smart ones …..it’s much harder to sustain what they are doing than what the Yanks could do if they combined smart drafting with spendi g money

  40. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 11:09 pm

    Hey ron, give my Giants some credit!!!!

  41. Doreen April 24th, 2013 at 11:09 pm

    Scout better, not draft better, sorry.

    And you cannot compare a team that has no pressure to,win versus a team that has to win.

    The Rays Have the freedom to fall on their faces and the Ankees do not.

  42. bigdan22 April 24th, 2013 at 11:10 pm

    A miserable end to a would of, should of, could of road trip. No shame losing 2 of 3 to this Tampa team at this time. The Yanks faced superior pitching with a depleted line-up. Hell. they were lucky not be swept and be on a 4 game losing streak now. It was the last Toronto game that was the killer. Toronto is a bad team now and was handing the Yanks a sweep but the team couldn’t close the deal. I absolutely hate the attitude of “just winning series.” It seems like on these Girardi Yankees, after they win the first two games of three game series they act like they’re playing with house money. As I pointed out a couple days ago, it’s just as easy to lose a three game series as it is to win one.

    The ’98 Yanks didn’t think that way. Bet the Stengel Yanks didn’t think that way. Stengel was probably the best mgr the Yanks ever had. He didn’t give a damn what anyone thought of him. His players hated him. But if you get the chance, take a look at the line-ups of the “great” Yankee dynasty teams of the late 40s and 50s. Those line-ups weren’t so impressive. A couple great players like Mantle and Berra, a good player in the Scooter, and bunch of role players. Then take a look at the Brooklyn line-up they schooled regularly. That line-up was awesome. But those Stengel Yanks acted like not winning a World Series was like stealing bread from under their mouths. The front office instilled that too. They treated the World Series share as part of their salary!

    Well I digress. I guess with this line-up, they should feel lucky to be where they are. But attitude, like character, counts.

  43. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 11:11 pm

    blake

    But they have two really good young pitchers to build on from here, a developing big hitter in Myers, and a tradable chip (assuming they don’t extend him) in Price that is going to bring back some great assets.

  44. blake April 24th, 2013 at 11:12 pm

    When you have drafted and developed the starters they have, I don’t think needles in a haystack is an apt analogy because it devalues a working plan.”

    He’s i think they do have a good system in place for pitcher development…..I was just talking about the draft in general…..however I do think they have bad some good fortune as well. Moore was a nice prospect then all the sudden his velo jumped to 95+ and he was a great one…..

    Can they repeat this wave of starters they have made? We shall see

  45. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 11:14 pm

    “And you cannot compare a team that has no pressure to,win versus a team that has to win.”

    Of course you can, they compete in the same league.

    And the pressure to win is a fiction imposed by the owner who thinks that saying they are going to win the WS every single year is more meaningful than some dumb political slogan a political hack comes up with for his empty suit candidate.

    Fans aren’t as stupid as Hal thinks they are. They would be willing to watch a team take a step back if the plan is explained to them and executed well.

  46. blake April 24th, 2013 at 11:15 pm

    “blake

    But they have two really good young pitchers to build on from here, a developing big hitter in Myers, and a tradable chip (assuming they don’t extend him) in Price that is going to bring back some great assets.”

    I think what Friedman is able to get for Price will be huge in determining their success over the next 5 or so years…..they probably can’t keep him and that’s a deal he has to make hay on to re stock their system with talent …..my guess is their plan is to build the rotation around Moore and then use Price to add pieces to put around He and Longoria

  47. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 11:15 pm

    blake

    The Yankees’ developing starters regularly lose velo, with the exception being IPK, who gained velo after he left.

    There has to be something other than luck going on.

  48. Against All Odds April 24th, 2013 at 11:15 pm

    ron April 24th, 2013 at 11:08 pm

    ———————–

    That’s the main point which is some teams are better at drafting players than others. The Raiders have done a poor job drafting over the yrs but look at the athletes littered throughout the roster on the 49ers.

    Yes drafting at the top does have it’s benefits but what they do after those top pics is just as important.

  49. blake April 24th, 2013 at 11:15 pm

    Night all….

  50. austinmac April 24th, 2013 at 11:16 pm

    MTU,

    Cobb has a better CU than Phelps. Cobb has about a good of one as anybody.

    I do agree they should try Phelps. Nova doesn’t seem to command his pitches and grooves too many.

    There is no need for a good minor league system when they won’t use anyone. I do note that other than Depaula and Sanchez, most of the top prospects have been underwhelming this year. Heathcott has been awful thus far. Austin has been so-so. Williams has been okay. I want someone to force the Yankees to promote him.

  51. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 11:16 pm

    GN blake

  52. MTU April 24th, 2013 at 11:20 pm

    Mac-

    And Phelps has the better 2-seamer and curve.

    They both have excellent command.

    Mustelier did everything but part the Red sea. What else could he have done ?

    The Yankees need to make room for their youngsters if they want to develop them.

    They were really used to buying what they needed.

    Time for dreamland. See ya’ manana.

    :)

  53. Nick in SF April 24th, 2013 at 11:22 pm

    “What’s the Yankees’ philosophy?”

    Break hearts, crush dreams, ruin lives.

  54. austinmac April 24th, 2013 at 11:24 pm

    Hasta luego, Sr. MTU.

  55. Against All Odds April 24th, 2013 at 11:33 pm

    picks*

  56. Rich in NJ April 24th, 2013 at 11:36 pm

    “Break hearts, crush dreams, ruin lives.”

    I think that’s what Meanwell said too, right?

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