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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Lessons learned from the Cardinals

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Oct 25, 2013 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Mike Matheny

The Yankees started their organizational meetings this week, conveniently discussing the state of the organization just as the World Series got underway. So what can the Yankees learn from the two teams playing in the Fall Classic? There’s certainly a lot to be said for successful drafting and player development — and both the Cardinals and Red Sox have had more recent success than the Yankees in that department — but we’ve always known that drafting and development are key to long-term success. We’ll try to find some specific lessons to take from each World Series team, starting with the Cardinals.

It’s possible to move on (but only if the system is ready)
Two years ago, the Cardinals let Albert Pujols walk away. It wasn’t necessarily the plan — they tried to re-sign him — but when the bidding got too high, the Cardinals let their best player go and replaced him with an eighth-round draft pick who had fewer than 120 games of Major League experience. Turned out, Allen Craig was absolutely ready to emerge from bench player to All-Star, and the Cardinals have been far better off without Pujols. As the Yankees face a similar situation with their own elite position player, could it make sense to let Robinson Cano walk away? It’s certainly worth noting that every big contract comes with risk, and Cano’s next deal could be trouble down the road, but the Yankees also seem less prepared than the Cardinals were two years ago. Craig had hit .315/.362/.555 the year before he took over for Pujols. David Adams, the Yankees most advance second base prospect, hit .193/.252/.286 this year. The Cardinals have shown it’s entirely possible to move on after a superstar departs, but it requires a level of preparedness that the Yankees might not have right now.

Minor league pitching statistics can be misleading
Talent above all else. That has to be some sort of mantra for the Cardinals young pitching staff. Rookie starter Shelby Miller had a 3.06 ERA this season. Last year, he had a 4.74 ERA in Triple-A. Another rookie, Carlos Martinez, had a 5.08 ERA in the big leagues during the season, and opponents were hitting .296 against him heading into September. But he was awfully good in that final month and now serves as the Cardinals top setup man. Another go-to rookie reliever, Seth Maness, had a 1.48 WHIP in Triple-A this year, but a 1.26 in the Majors. Young starter Lance Lynn was stuck in Triple-A for 42 starts and a 4.43 ERA, but he’s been a solid big leaguer for two-plus years and he made two strong appearances in the NLCS. In some cases, minor league numbers paint a picture of what to expect — Trevor Rosenthal and Michael Wacha were terrific minor leaguers — but sometimes minor league scouting and statistics like strikeout rate may be a better indicator of which pitchers will have legitimate success at the highest level.

Offense doesn’t have to come from every position
The Cardinals starting shortstop was supposed to be Rafael Furcal, but he’s hurt, and so the Cardinals have gone with a combination of defensive standout Pete Kozma — a career .236/.308/.344 hitter in the minors — and utility man Daniel Descalso, who was primarily a second baseman in the minors, and who’s hit just .232/.297/.343 the past two years. As long as the rest of the Cardinals lineup is productive, a non-hitter in the No. 8 spot is relatively easy to overcome. Even with David Freese struggling and Jon Jay having an up-and-down year, the Cardinals still led the league in runs by a big margin. The Yankees tried to do something similar at catcher this season — going with a series of glove-first, low-offense options — and the offensive struggles at the position became harder to overcome when other key hitters struggled to either stay healthy or stay productive. One weak-hitting position isn’t a deal-breaker, but that’s largely dependent on having other hitters to pick up the slack. The Cardinals had that this season; the Yankees did not.

Recognize strengths and weaknesses (and react accordingly)
In 2011, the Cardinals traded away former first-round draft pick Colby Rasmus, who had already emerged as the team’s center fielder of both the present and the future. They gave him up for a bunch of short-term assets — knowing they could plug Jay into center field — and three months later, they won a World Series. In 2012, the Cardinals gave a two-year deal to free agent Carlos Beltran. The team already had one highly paid corner outfielder, but there was a recognition that the team could fill other holes from within, and Beltran has been a potent postseason force. Their biggest acquisition last offeseason was Randy Choate, whose three-year deal was an acknowledgement that the Cardinals system could fill a lot of pitching holes, but lefty specialist might not be one of them. Already this winter, the Yankees have passed on Cuban standout Jose Abreu (who does not fill a position of need) while showing significant interest in Japanese starter Masahiro Tanaka (who would fill a position of significant need). During the summer, the Yankees used their top picks on a third baseman (a thin position in the system) and a raw power bat (not a ton of slugging in the system). In looking for trade options, the Yankees could capitalize on their young catching and center field depth, while acknowledging their lack of upper-level infielders. They also might have to trust that at least one or two of their upper-level pitchers will be able to play a legitimate role in 2014.

A thin bench is a significant risk
Perhaps the biggest negative of this Cardinals team is the lack of an impact player off the bench. Some of that should be helped when Craig comes off the disabled list for the World Series, but throughout the NLDS and NLCS, the Cardinals routinely used untested and light-hitting pinch hitter in key spots. They didn’t have many alternatives, which suggests they might have been in a situation similar to the Yankees had they gone through the Yankees injury problems this season. It helped that the Cardinals most significant positional injuries were at shortstop (where they had a defensive standout ready) and at first base (where they had slugger Matt Adams waiting in the wings). Looking at the Cardinals bench this postseason suggests a real gamble, one that wasn’t helped by signing Ty Wigginton in the offseason to be a key bench bat (he performed so badly he was released). Right now, the Cardinals are on a roll heading into the World Series, looking like a team that could be building a dynasty. But given that bench, where would they be had their left fielder broken a couple of bones or their third baseman needed surgery?

Associated Press photo

 
 

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140 Responses to “Lessons learned from the Cardinals”

  1. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    Nice analysis, altho some here would disagree esp @ C.

  2. blake October 25th, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    “What is this egg you’re talking about?”

    Big Green Egg. It’s a ceramic cooker/smoker/grill/oven.

  3. blake October 25th, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    The Cardinals would almost certainly let Cano go if the bidding got to 200 million……one key difference though between the Cardinals decision with Pujols and the Yankees with Cano…….2 years ago you got the pick of whoever signed the player……the Angels signed Pujols so the Cardinals got their pick (#18) and took Wacha.

    With the new CBA that has changed…..so if for example the Nats signed Cano then the Yanks wouldn’t get their pick but merely a sandwich pick at the end of the first round. Still valuable but not nearly as valuable as it used to be as there can be a big gap in talent between #18 and #30 in some drafts.

  4. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    Great post Chad.

    Really nice analysis.

    I have always believed it was not necessary to re-invent the wheel.

    The Yankees only need no further back than 2009, or even to 98 to see how to construct a Team.

    There are plenty of good development and scouting models to copy.

  5. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    What would it take to replace Cano if he were to go?
    Beltran and McCann enough?

  6. blake October 25th, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    “Recognize strengths and weaknesses (and react accordingly)”

    huge point

  7. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    But the first things they need to do are:

    Wall off non-baseball types from making baseball decisions.

    Firing Newman and possibly DO.

    And getting a GM who knows how to evaluate talent.

  8. blake October 25th, 2013 at 12:12 pm

    “What would it take to replace Cano if he were to go?
    Beltran and McCann enough?”

    sure in a vacuum Beltran and McCann should replace Cano’s production or close…..however you’d have to give up the draft pick to go that route and for 2014 those two players likely will cost more in AAV than Cano alone.

  9. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    Mick-

    The 1st thing would be to get a 2b replacement.

    I think Brandon Phillips can do almost everything Cano can do but with a little less stick and for way less money.

    He is as slick at 2b as anyone around and he’s a winner.

  10. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    I’m not giving up that draft pick.

  11. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    Castro (3b) or Peralta, AJ P, and Tanaka.

    Phillips for 2b if Cano splits.

  12. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    Buy time until 2015, and the Farm matures more.

    Or do as Blake says, blow up 189 and go for it.

    ;)

  13. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    They need to get back to the patient approach like the redsox.
    They wear a pitcher out getting them to 100 pitches by the 6-7th every game.
    Gardner and Jeter are key. Beltran and McCann . Tex used to do it.

  14. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    If they floated that 300m rumor then I don’t think they are planning on Cano’s return.
    In fact, that just might be their strategy learning from the redsox and Cards.
    Hal doesn’t like long term deals and overpriced “superstars” dictating the terms.
    Not the way to go these days…

  15. luis October 25th, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    Excellent post Chad
    Good posts Blake regarding the change in MLB rules about draft picks

  16. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    That is the model Stick and Buck tried to create starting in 98.

    Damon and Matsui were bot excellent at it.

    Along with the healthy Jeter.

    It isn’t rocket science.

  17. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    Mick-

    I don’ think the Yankees are going to the mat for Cano.

    I’m not even sure they’ll go 200, or whether they should.

  18. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    mtu

    I believe Hal gets satisfaction in letting big ticket items walk.
    KInd of the opposite of his Dad.

  19. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    I’m not even sure they’ll go 200, or whether they should.
    ==================
    Not if their plan is to spend 300m.

  20. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    Mick-

    We are about to find out.

    ;)

  21. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    This should be an interesting Hot Stove MTU…

    More possibilities than last year.

  22. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    Mick-

    Absolute rife with possibilities.

    For sure.

  23. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    sp: absolutely

  24. JobaTipsHisCap October 25th, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    if cano asks too much, just let him go.
    You have to do it.

  25. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    Hal could take the easy way out and spend like a Mad Man but that seems to be against his grain. May be why he never wanted in when Dad was around.

    He seems to want value for his dollar and fans would get over Cano if he makes a sincere effort to rebuild the team properly.

  26. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    Mick-

    I would hate to lose Cano. He’s a star.

    But I have seen some of the wisdom of not offering the moon to players.

    I think they will make him a very competitive offer but not get into a potential bidding war.

    I’m Ok w that.

    Especially with all of our other needs.

    His money can be spread around if need be.

    Just waiting to see how it goes down.

  27. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    If the Arod thing becomes a circus, Horowitz could give him just the 50 games, for 1st offense.
    This would save some money, maybe enough to let go of Wells, ;) .

  28. blake October 25th, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    the problem with letting Cano go is that you almost certainly would have to lose the draft pick to sign enough production to replace his if you want to compete in 2014…….signing McCann and Choo wouldn’t be enough most likely if you’re losing Cano to be a contender……they really have a tough decision to make this winter……and these decisions are going to shape the next several years for the yankees.

  29. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    I don’t see the sox beating the Cards.
    Even if they wear their starters out, that pen has a bunch of young flame throwers.
    Metheny was smart getting their feet wet in game 1.
    Cards have the better all around team and are about to expose the beards.

  30. JobaTipsHisCap October 25th, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    Beltran’s RBI hit in game 2 is so beautiful.

  31. blake October 25th, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    The Sox best chance to win the series is to just get it back to Fenway…..they only need to win one game in St Louis to do that.

  32. JobaTipsHisCap October 25th, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    Let them expose Peavy and drill ortiz. You have to drill this mf.

  33. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    beltran is a smart hitter and might get even better in this series as he will be forced to just make contact with that rib injury.

    i think he wants to play here and knows girardi would be smart about resting him.
    ichiro gardner and soriano would make for an interestin OF.

  34. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    they really have a tough decision to make this winter……and these decisions are going to shape the next several years for the yankees.

    —————

    They left too much unanswered in 2013 ..they left too many holes. The only way to be competitive in 2014 is probably to buy – quite literally – ALL the players. They would need to use free agency to resign Cano, buy an OF, 2 starters, and sign at least one other INF (3B, SS or C). The market based on what the Giants did is already looking to be inflated.. I think the only one of the above that would come more cheaply is a back end starter.

  35. mick October 25th, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    The Sox best chance to win the series is to just get it back to Fenway…..they only need to win one game in St Louis to do that.
    ======================
    I expect at least one shootout in st louie and cards win 2 there, sox win game 6 and lose #7
    12-11 peavy vs joe kelly.

  36. blake October 25th, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    I’d rather have Joe KElly pitching than Peavy. I do think the series will make it back to Fenway for sure and it’ll come down to whether or not the Cards can win another game in Boston.

  37. MTU October 25th, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    If Buttholz is not up to snuff that’s another potential hit.

    Time to get some exercise.

    Catch you guys later.

    Have a good day.

    :)

  38. chicken little October 25th, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    The Cardinals let Pujols go because they recognized that nobody, not even Albert Pujols (who was being compared to Musial) is worth a ten year gamble at $20+ million a year, especially when the player will be over 40 when the contract is up.

    I hope the Yankees recognize this with Cano. True, length of contract helped secure talent to win in 2009. Now its 2013 and the Yanks are paying for those contracts.

  39. luis October 25th, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    What i would if i were them:

    1) Let cano walk if the contract exceeds 6 or 7 years

    2) Don´t sign anyone that would cost us the draft pick

    3) Concentrate heavily in scouting, drafting and development

    4) Go below the 189 mil cap to reset the luxury tax

    5) I would try to trade Texeira even if it means eating most of the contract. Same goes with CC…But i don´t think there will be many takers though…But i would explore it nevertheless

    6) Go after the Japanese pitcher with everything they´ve got

    7) Wait and see what the FA class is for 2015

    8) Trade Nova straight up for Castro…If not pass on him

    All this moves imply moving Cashman out of the GM spot to start with and hire a good baseball Gm that actually has some experience building teams from scratch

  40. blake October 25th, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    “I hope the Yankees recognize this with Cano. True, length of contract helped secure talent to win in 2009. Now its 2013 and the Yanks are paying for those contracts.”

    The last big contract the yanks gave out the player was worth it exactly 1 season…..not saying Cano will be that way but history is against it being a good contract

  41. blake October 25th, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    The Yankees need to look in the mirror and decide who they want to be

  42. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    There is a Grand Canyon sized hole between what I would do this off season and what I think the Yankees will do.

  43. luis October 25th, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    Shame,

    I know…You would probably hire every good FA available…Screw the payroll!!! ;)

  44. luis October 25th, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    Oh and get rid of Mr Levine or leave him handling the politics side of the business…He seems to be good at it…But no baseball input

  45. luis October 25th, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    I know that what I propose means no PS 2014 and probably 2015…But if it means another true World Championship caliber team for 2016 and beyond, I am all for it…They would need to be very forthcoming about it though

  46. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    You know what, luis? I think I could create a plan that makes us good for 2014 but doesn’t get us under the cap until 2016. I think Cash could too. I hope they let him.

  47. randy l. October 25th, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    “There is a Grand Canyon sized hole between what I would do this off season and what I think the Yankees will do.”

    shame-

    before he really read why you said MTU is packing up for a hike.

    my gut level feeling is that when MTU gets to the bottom of that canyon it’s going to be about tow years down the road. 2016 would be the hike back up.

    if the yankees surprise us and do more what you’re thinking, the trip down won’t be so bad, maybe just next year.

  48. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    I’d do:

    Cano, Peralta (1-2 years)
    Choo, Granderson (1-2 years)
    Tanaka, Kuroda (1 year), cheap #5 (1 year)

    You carry 3 guys into the 2016 season when Tex and Jeter are gone and you (hopefully) have a cheap OF.

    If I sign Choo and Grandy I probably try to move Gardner for something depending on the return. Same goes for Nova if you sign Tanaka and Kuroda.

  49. luis October 25th, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    Shame,

    Yes…The problem that i see with that kind of strategy is that they still will be sacrificing the future for instant gratification…In the end, I don´t think they will be able to build a winner for 2014…Too many holes to fill and too much age on the roster already… I rather have a couple of bad seasons ( three to be exact) and a decade of dominance afterwards than one WS title and another decade of mediocrity as a result…Because going after FA means losing draft picks, trades means losing the pieces to rebuild the core and at the same time we will be getting more LT contracts where you pay for previous production rather than actual production…That would be a return to the 80´s… I tremble at the mere thought about it

  50. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    I’d be tempted by Beltran but I use my #18 pick to sign the best player available, regardless of position.

  51. blake October 25th, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    A very “Yankees thing to do ” would be for the Yankees to cave and give Cano 200+ million and them for them to forfeit the draft pick to sign a 37 year old Beltran…..and then for them to try and tell the fans that’ll be good enough.

  52. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    Ah, I forgot the pick would go for Choo.

  53. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    luis October 25th, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    Shame,

    Yes…The problem that i see with that kind of strategy is that they still will be sacrificing the future for instant gratification

    —————–

    I was trying to focus on players that wouldn’t cost a pick. I don’t think you need to sacrifice the future at all to be good in 2014 and have a goal of being under the cap in 2016.

  54. Doreen October 25th, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    luis,

    When you say forthcoming, do you mean that Hal & Co should set up a press conference and lay out their plans to the world?

    I’m not sure I agree with that. It’s really to something I’d expect any team to do.

  55. Doreen October 25th, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    really not something

  56. luis October 25th, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:14 pm
    I’d do:

    Cano, Peralta (1-2 years)
    Choo, Granderson (1-2 years)
    Tanaka, Kuroda (1 year), cheap #5 (1 year)

    You carry 3 guys into the 2016 season when Tex and Jeter are gone and you (hopefully) have a cheap OF.

    If I sign Choo and Grandy I probably try to move Gardner for something depending on the return. Same goes for Nova if you sign Tanaka and Kuroda.

    ====================================

    Choo is getting a multiyear deal and the draft pick( 5 years I think )…Granderson might as well, but he may come back for a one year deal…Cano depends on the length of the contract…tanaka as I said, I would go all out for him…Peralta would fill a need, good choice…Kuroda is a big if still…I wouldn´t trade Nova unless if it is for a young cost control amazing position player (Castro) and only straight up…Still it would be a huge risk ( Tanaka is still an unknown quantity and Kuroda although good he is getting there in age ), I would try to keep him if the kind of return I am talking about is not there.

    Still…With the players you mention, I don´t think we have a good enough team if you ask me

  57. luis October 25th, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    Doreen,

    If they are in rebuilding mode, they should say it and be done with it…You don´t explain the details of the plan…But you describe the general direction of the team…I am sure most of the fan base would get behind it if they are clear what the goal is…You know what´s damaging?..Trying to sell a team filled with age and scrap heap picks as a “WS caliber team”…The fans are not idiots…They shouldn´t treat them as such

  58. luis October 25th, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    blake October 25th, 2013 at 1:16 pm
    A very “Yankees thing to do ” would be for the Yankees to cave and give Cano 200+ million and them for them to forfeit the draft pick to sign a 37 year old Beltran…..and then for them to try and tell the fans that’ll be good enough.

    =================================

    That would be the Steinbrenner way…Not the Yankee way ;)

  59. randy l. October 25th, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    i get the feeling that most of you are trying to save next year. to me the yankees have already gone past a point of no return. i’m thinking more of two and three years down the road for them to be good again.

    for starters, how do the yankees either digest a 200 million dollar contact to cano or the even worse in the short run option of him leaving and not being there for 2014.

    also, if you think next year is salvageable , what are you looking for to make that happen ?
    and when do we either see it happening or know it’s not going to happen.

    my feeling is that we’re going to pretty much know what the yankees are up to by the time we sit down for thanksgiving dinner.

  60. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    I think Choo and a healthy Grandy should help a lot in terms of OF production. Then you have Sori/Ichi as your DH, 4th/5th OFer. Jeter and Peralta on the left side, Cano back where he belongs and Tex – god willing – posting 2012 numbers (I know, I know..).

    I don’t think Tanaka, Choo and Cano getting long deals is an issue unless they HAVE to get under the cap now or in 2015.

  61. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    Mike is arguing with the NYDN on his show right now and it’s epically entertaining.

  62. blake October 25th, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    also, if you think next year is salvageable , what are you looking for to make that happen ?
    and when do we either see it happening or know it’s not going to happen.”

    It’d take a major overhaul…..as i said earlier if you sign any FA requiring the loss of the draft pick then you have to justify that by signing a lot more players……otherwise it’s pointless and counterproductive.

    This team isn’t 1 or 2 players away…..they are several

  63. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    I don’t even know exactly what they’re arguing about.. it sounds like Mike is saying the NYDN received leaks. They’re saying they didn’t receive leaks, they have sources and do investigative research. There’s probably more to it but that’s the most I can get out of this feud lol.

  64. chicken little October 25th, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    to me, the yankees can afford one to two bad long-term contracts on its books every year (i.e., one guy who was productive in years 1-5, but now that it is year 7, is not productive). the problem is if the yankees sign cano now to a 10 year deal, knowing the yanks’ history, come year 6, there will be about 5 of these bad contracts.

  65. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    Mike saying the Arod story has been one sided. NYDN saying they’re reporting the facts. Mike saying the stories about Arod never playing again came from NYDN, NYDN saying that was a Madden article, Mike saying it was on the back page lol. This is such a funny argument.. lots of yelling.. reminds me of Thanksgiving at my house.

  66. yanksinsd October 25th, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    if rivera wants to go to a place where they dont play baseball, he should just stay in new york. i hesitate to call anything jayson nix or chris stewart do, baseball.

  67. pat October 25th, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    They’re saying they didn’t receive leaks, they have sources and do investigative research.

    and yet with all their investigation they have never found out the names of anyone else on the 2003 list except theone that was leaked to them. :wink:

  68. blake October 25th, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    The Yankees cannot lose that pick unless they commit to seriously putting a title contender on the field in 2014….. And by that I don’t mean Hals definition that he tries to spin in press conferences……I mean a true one

  69. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    NYDN keeps going after Mike for not asking Arod the hard hitting questions. Says he gave him a hug in 2010 in spring training.

    Seriously.

  70. luis October 25th, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    Shame,

    I could be wrong. but I understand that if they don´t reset the cap now, the tax rate will increase exponentially for 2014…Still, even if that wasn´t the case…We are ripe for a rebuilding…if you are going to reset the tax, this is probably the best time to do so.

    Blake,

    Exactly my point…I just don´t think there is enough talent on the FA class to suddenly transform this team in to a true contender…Not to mention the dire long term consequences that going down that road might entail…But I agree, they need to pick a lane…Stay in the middle would be even worse.

    Randy,

    Good post…I know most people don´t remember…But sometimes is better to take a step back to take three forward afterwards…My only doubt would be Mr C at the helm

  71. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    Francesa just got the NYDN’s guy to say that MLB said they bought stolen evidence. Which I do not believe he wanted to say lol… he had to back track and say they bought stolen evidence without knowing it was stolen.

  72. Against All Odds October 25th, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    blake October 25th, 2013 at 12:57 pm
    The Yankees need to look in the mirror and decide who they want to be

    —————

    Team Greedy :)

  73. pat October 25th, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    Francesa should have been a defense attorney. Hes making this guy crazy.

  74. pat October 25th, 2013 at 1:49 pm

    From a NY Post writer……

    MikeVacc
    Michael O’Keefe is embarrassing himself – and newspaper journalism – with this immature, name calling rant. Someone stop him. Please.

  75. blake October 25th, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    “Exactly my point…I just don´t think there is enough talent on the FA class to suddenly transform this team in to a true contender…Not to mention the dire long term consequences that going down that road might entail…But I agree, they need to pick a lane…Stay in the middle would be even worse”

    I think there might be but it’s certainly not fitting into Hal’s budget and it would require them signing more players than is probably realistic

    I mean if they got Cano, Granderson, and Kuroda back…..signed McCann, signed either Beltran or Choo…..signed Tanaka, and signed either Drew or Peralta then they could compete for the title next year. But thats a lot…..

  76. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    luis – It’s not exponentially. I think right now they pay a certain % (I think 40%) on all dollars above $178 or something… in 2014 the % goes up (to 50%) but the dollars taxed are those above $189.

    I disagree that now is the best time to do so. I think they can be competitive and say ‘we’ll deal with this in 2016 or 2017 when it makes sense.’ But I don’t think they’re targeting ’16-17 lol. If only….

  77. Against All Odds October 25th, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    Mike is in attack mode lol

  78. hardwired7 October 25th, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    We go to Harold Lederman’s scorecard: That’s a 10-8 round for Francesa.

  79. blake October 25th, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    you tell me they could have this lineup

    Jeter 3B/SS
    Choo/Beltran RF
    Cano 2B
    Soriano DH
    McCann C
    Tex 1B
    Granderson LF
    Peralta/Drew SS/3B
    Gardner CF

    and this rotation: Sabathia, Kuroda, Tanaka, Nova, Pineda

    then I’d say they could win a title possibly with that club…….but that’s way over budget I’d think and also pretty unrealistic to think they could get all those players…….some wouldn’t do it…..you’d need most of them for it to make sense.

  80. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    I hate that Mike is making me agree with him, but he just said something that really struck me: ‘Arod will be long gone but baseball will still be here, how they act is important.’

  81. Against All Odds October 25th, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    ———————-

    He doesn’t know sh*t about prospects but damn he can mix it up with the best of them.

  82. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    blake – I think you can do it without McCann. And I think they should try. It will annoy me endlessly if they go all in for 2014 after letting Mo languish for a full 2013, but I will admire them sticking by their statements about being committed to fielding a championship team.

    One thing a lot of people get wrong on here: we want to like Hal. We want to love him. We want to canonize him. We want to make him the most celebrated NY sports figure – legendary status.

    Make us love you, Hal. NY love never ends.

  83. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    From the article pat linked to this morning.

    Ahem. Whatever Lester did or didn’t do, this type of cheating is common, according to current and former MLB pitchers. And if you drill down to the core of the issue, that is wrong for the same reason steroid use is wrong.

    A baseball game is a false construct, an invented thing for which people created arbitrary rules: Nine innings, three outs, no PEDs or doctoring the ball. The only way a game works is if all the participants agree to follow the same rules, and violations are enforced.

    “We move on with the fact that the league now has to take notice.”

    (Hint from me to Mike Metheny – fat chance of that)

    We do know that in May, Blue Jays broadcasters Jack Morris and Dirk Hayhurst, both former pitchers, accused Boston’s Clay Buchholz of using a foreign substance on the ball during a game in Toronto; Buchholz denied the allegations.

    Given all that, you don’t need to be a grassy knoll-type to take seriously any accusation of foreign substance use by pitchers. But on Thursday, MLB, the Cardinals and the Red Sox — who, again, responded to every inquiry and answered all questions — worked to minimize the controversy. That was how they were going to play it, and that’s cool, even if the Sox failed to settle on an explanation for the green glow.

    One of our anonymous pitchers said, “For me, if I just lost World Series Game 1, and knew the guy was cheating, I would be angry about it.”

    ______________________________

    Great article. Love reading articles that cut to the chase and get down to the real basics. Cheating is wrong.

    It drove me crazy that nobody bothered calling Kenny Rogers on his use of pine tar during the 2006 postseason – the year of Murderer’s Row and Cano (so much for offense). Torre was questioned about it but he low-keyed it. Prince Valiant didn’t even bring it up when they played the Tigers. But it was out there and the press was all over it.

    The harsh reality for me, and the reason I truly believe that none of the managers bothered with it, is that managers, especially the old dogs, are as complicit with this stuff as the players that do the cheating. It probably goes back to what everyone continues to blithely say about cheating in the game. It’s been around forever.

    But hopefully a new wave is coming and people who actually care about the credibility of the game will come out on top. As the author of the article said, “The only way a game works is if all the participants agree to follow the same rules, and violations are enforced.

    That would be a bingo.

  84. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    He’s saying Arod isn’t the game. And that MLB isn’t the FBI.

  85. blake October 25th, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Shame,

    here is the best team I think they could do without giving up the draft pick (unless there is a trade out there we don’t know about)

    Garder CF
    Jeter SS/3B
    Cano 2B
    Soriano RF
    Tex 1B
    Morales DH
    Granderson LF
    Salty C
    Peralta/Drew SS/3B

    Sabathia, Kuroda, Tanaka, Nova, Pineda.

    That team would be pretty good, probably fit under the cap, and would allow them to keep the draft choice.

    Of the lanes I have spoke of I think this plan would fit into Lane 2 that I spoke of earlier……It’s a more future driven plan because no long term money is spent other than Cano and Tanaka but Cano is an elite player and Tanaka is 25 years old.

    I’d be happy if they had this club and I’d consider it a successful offseason.

  86. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    I think I will try to familiarize myself with Rob Manfred – if there’s anything out there to discover. It’s looking like he’s the heir apparent.

  87. pat October 25th, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    Mike has seen affidavits that evidence was offered for sale to Alex and the Yankees (Randy Levine) and both turned it down but MLB bought it.

  88. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    “Unless Mr. Rodriguez and his representatives have violated the confidentiality of the joint drug agreement, there is no way these individuals could know what wrongs have been allegedly committed,” said Manfred, a favorite to replace Selig as the next commissioner. “If they don’t know what wrongs have been committed, I don’t know how they can make a judgment on whether the punishment was unfair or unjust.”

    I like the guy already. Kind of what some of us have been saying here in response to the guesses on how many games will be meted out. Tough to know when you don’t know the particulars.

  89. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    pat October 25th, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    Mike has seen affidavits that evidence was offered for sale to Alex and the Yankees (Randy Levine) and both turned it down but MLB bought it.

    ——————-

    This whole interview is so much fun, isn’t it pat?

    I’m dying laughing.

    That affidavit situation is obviously the most interesting, but the rest is great entertainment.

  90. pat October 25th, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    I know Rob Manfred. He’s a jackass. The most honorable guy who worked for MLB was Bob DuPuy and he was let go.

  91. blake October 25th, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    the only thing interesting to me about the Arod case at this point is the date that it will be over…..please hurry and make a ruling.

  92. Mottsx October 25th, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    About Morales… Seattle already said they are offering him the QO, he isn’t worth losing a pick.

  93. luis October 25th, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    Blake,

    Got to go…But good proposals…I will elaborate later…Have a good one all

  94. pat October 25th, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    Shame

    I enjoy crazy. The NYDN sent in the person they thought best able to yell over Francesa but that person has yet to be born.

  95. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    pat – Oh how I wish I could get Nancy Grace and Mike Francesa in the same room….

  96. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    People question why Ortiz is the golden boy and Arod is the whipping post. It’s hard to bring total objectivity into it when you’re Yankee fans, but some things are evident.

    1. Arod has messed up all over the place in many different ways. Ortiz has managed to look good.

    2. Arod has admitted to using in the past. Ortiz has never done so.

    3. Arod has been associated with doctors who have been charged with violations related to steroids. Ortiz has not.

    4. Arod has a massive contract and people are now questioning whether he ever really earned it as a clean athlete. Ortiz is probably paid nicely but isn’t breaking the bank.

    5. Arod is once again embroiled in a situation where the use of illegal PEDs is in question.

    You’d been less than honest to say that Arod hasn’t given the press and the world reason to look at him in a less-than-honorable light. He’s done it with illegal poker games; cheating on his wife; and cheating the game, on and off the field, amongst other things. Like it or not, those things reflect on his character.

    Everything I have mentioned to this point is documented. The next one isn’t, but at least a few people are on board with this one. And this one, IMO, is huge.

    6. The league, through Bud and Henry, has made sure that Ortiz remains untouched.

  97. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    “Listen these guys are reporters.. they dig… I don’t go following stories, I’m a personality.. but if someone wants something made public there’s a chance they’re going to give it to me. If I break a story it’s because someone gave it to me.. it’s not like I’m beating the bush for it. I’m not a reporter.”

  98. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    “the only thing interesting to me about the Arod case at this point is the date that it will be over…..please hurry and make a ruling.”

    I have a feeling that they’re dragging this out intentionally so that no announcement of any kind is made during the World Series.

  99. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    “I know Rob Manfred. He’s a jackass. The most honorable guy who worked for MLB was Bob DuPuy and he was let go.”

    Great.

    :(

  100. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    An investigator called in to say that evidence that is paid for is very shaky. #Shocking.

    Says the fact that the evidence was stolen muddies the water further.

    And if it was stolen, the evidence is apparently not legal. But I guess if MLB says they don’t know it was stolen it might still count..? Lawyers, please help.

  101. yanksinsd October 25th, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    you know whats sad about the red sox and their fans?

    they dont have an identity of their own, and neither them nor their fans realize it.

    their identity is completely dependent on the yankees.

    they are the anti-yankees.

    the yankees are clean faced. so to be the anti-yankees, the red sox must employ the most disgusting beards known to mankind.

  102. yanksinsd October 25th, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    you’re forgetting the only characteristic that matters, trisha.

    Ortiz is a Red Sox.

    A-Rod is a Yankee.

  103. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    Shame et al – last year I bought a big electric cooker so that on holidays I would be able to use my limited oven space more efficiently. You can cook a 25 lb. turkey in it, so it’s great for roasts, ham, etc.

    The only problem is that you really have to know how to work with one of those things. For example, the ham that supposedly would have taken about 2.5 hours in my oven at the same temperature was done and the outside almost blackening in less than an hour. So much for having everything come out around the same time!

    Now I’m afraid to experiment with it because I have no idea how long things will take in it.
    :(

    That said, I’ll now go back to worrying about controlling the only area where I have any actual say so: my own life.

    :)

    Have a great day y’all.

  104. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    If you have 20 minutes, please listen.

    @MikeFrancesaNY Da winnah and still Numbah 1, ME! MT @WFAN660 AUDIO: Mike Francesa, Daily News’ Michael O’Keeffe go at it over #AROD. http://cbsloc.al/1acYnGo

  105. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    Shame, just saw your post on stolen evidence.

    I haven’t really been following all of today’s Francesa posts (more interested in the Lester cheating article), so if you can give me the particulars in a nutshell, I will give you my best shot.

  106. blake October 25th, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    “About Morales… Seattle already said they are offering him the QO, he isn’t worth losing a pick.”

    if that’s the case then no….no he wouldn’t be. Boston may make Salty the QO as well and if so I’d look elsewhere there also (maybe Ruiz).

  107. pat October 25th, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Shame

    http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/st.....-documents

  108. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Well the basis of the question would be: is stolen evidence legal?

    If it is, that’s the end of the line of questioning. If it isn’t, does the knowledge of whether or not it was stolen matter?

  109. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    I’m wondering just how freeing it is to have the owner of a sports team also own the major newspaper in a city.

    Dan Shaughnessey better be brushing up his resume…

  110. blake October 25th, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    Arod should never have admitted to using PEDS in 2009…..it didn’t help him at all. Basically he got screwed totally…….he failed the test but the results were supposed to remain confidential…..but his name leaked out via Selena Gomez. So he fessed up and admitted it and has been skewered ever since…….

    Maybe he used this last time because he felt like his legacy and image was already ruined so what did it matter……

    There are tons of players walking around today that failed that test in 2003 as well…..we just don’t know who they are. They got off scott free…..Arods’ career was ruined……

  111. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    pat – Good stuff.. this part make me smile, because this whole thing is ridiculous. It’s like an Ocean’s 11 movie..

    “ESPN New York’s Wallace Matthews reported Wednesday on two payments made by Rodriguez associates and Major League Baseball related to the allegedly stolen documents: that MLB officials paid $150,000 for the documents, and that A-Rod associates paid Jones $200,000 for a video he had made of MLB officials paying him for the records.”

  112. blake October 25th, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Having said that…..Alex brings a lot on himself and this last time was totally on him for not learning a thing from what happened to him in 09

  113. yanksinsd October 25th, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    so true about shaughnessey. so true about henry and the boston globe. henry has just assured that no boston beat writer will ever question Ortiz about his ped use.

    another sad reality. the media claims that they wish they had been more proactive during the mcgwire years, asked more questions, not turned a blind eye.

    this is the perfect opportunity, on the sport’s biggest stage, to ask ortiz what he tested positive for and why, and how he has revived his career at age 38.

    But once again, they are complicit.

  114. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    Stolen evidence is not necessarily illegal in a court of law. So I can’t see it being illegal in an arbitration hearing. Stolen evidence can be considered if it is relevant to the case. But here’s a potential problem. It has to do with the weight of the evidence, not admissibility. I can see chain of custody allegations. Was the evidence tampered with after it was stolen? Is there a way to verify that the evidence that was stolen and delivered is the same evidence that was originally stolen. Here you get into witness verification issues. But it can be considered.

    Does that answer what you’re asking Shame?

  115. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    Unknown, the biker chick who has now come here 5 times to say she’s not coming here anymore, is here again?

    :D

  116. yanksinsd October 25th, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    unknown must be about 12 years old.

  117. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    yanksinsd October 25th, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    so true about shaughnessey. so true about henry and the boston globe. henry has just assured that no boston beat writer will ever question Ortiz about his ped use.

    ——————

    It doesn’t stop national reporters from doing it, though. It wasn’t the NY papers that sunk Arod, it was Selena Roberts and her pet project. Nothing is stopping a reporter outside of the Globe from going after Ortiz.

  118. yanksinsd October 25th, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    5 times, trisha? more like 100 times. :D

  119. Doreen October 25th, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    Sorry, luis, I was out,

    But, what’s the point? Why does it matter whether they say so or not?

    What would we have to talk about then? :)

  120. pat October 25th, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    Shame

    If a tanning bed repairman tries to sell you medical records, you should consider he might not have authority to sell them.

  121. yanksinsd October 25th, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    nothing is stopping a national reporter from going after ortiz, except for the national media’s loyalty to the red sox, america’s team. henry owning the globe assures there will never be another article like shaughnessy’s ortiz ped use

  122. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    trisha – Yes, thank you. So stolen evidence can be submitted and the credibility will be determined by the arbitrator.

    …. wouldn’t the arbitrator have to do research on the evidence before making any conclusions? Man, this could take forever.

  123. yanksinsd October 25th, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    unknown had her post removed for being unintelligible.

  124. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    pat October 25th, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    Shame

    If a tanning bed repairman tries to sell you medical records, you should consider he might not have authority to sell them.

    ——————

    :lol:

    This whole thing is so insane. The entire story is absurd. I cannot believe the crux of MLB’s case rests on evidence that was stolen out of some guys trunk. It’s so hard to wrap my head around..

  125. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    If Alex gets suspended for 100 games or less, this still ends up looking like a loss for MLB.

  126. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    “Well the basis of the question would be: is stolen evidence legal?

    If it is, that’s the end of the line of questioning.”

    Well okay then! Yes it can be considered legal and used if it is relevant to the matter at hand.

  127. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 2:58 pm

    “…. wouldn’t the arbitrator have to do research on the evidence before making any conclusions? Man, this could take forever.”

    That’s where the weight of the evidence would come in. The arbitrator would want to track it back to its original source and if there is a way to have it documented as unblemished, he would want to do that.

  128. Giuseppe Franco October 25th, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    I’m sure people have figured it out by now but C R has returned as yanksinsd.

    Shame,

    Not sure how you can stomach listening to Francesa.

  129. mick October 25th, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    you can have your own post removed?
    how and why is that done?

  130. mick October 25th, 2013 at 3:00 pm

    Not sure how you can stomach listening to Francesa.
    ====================
    Obviously you can’t.
    Why is that?

  131. Shame Spencer October 25th, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    :arrow:

    GF – I don’t often but I happened to catch him today and I’m glad.. it was one of the funnier things I’ve seen this week!

  132. Giuseppe Franco October 25th, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    mick October 25th, 2013 at 3:00 pm

    Obviously you can’t.
    Why is that?
    —–

    Because he’s a buffoon and doesn’t know jack about baseball in the modern age.

  133. trisha - true pinstriped blue October 25th, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    “If Alex gets suspended for 100 games or less, this still ends up looking like a loss for MLB.”

    I personally don’t care how this looks for either of the parties involved. All I want to see is justice according to the evidence.

  134. mick October 25th, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    Because he’s a buffoon and doesn’t know jack about baseball in the modern age.
    ========================
    How often do you listen to him?

  135. 86w183 October 25th, 2013 at 3:05 pm

    “Scoundrels versus Scumbags” the story of MLB’s witch hunt of Aelx Rodriguez

  136. mick October 25th, 2013 at 3:06 pm

    Will anybody be happy if Arod gets 50 games?

  137. Giuseppe Franco October 25th, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    mick October 25th, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    How often do you listen to him?

    ——

    Now? Never….it’s not like he hasn’t been around for decades.

    And he certainly hasn’t gotten smarter since I heard him regularly.

  138. mick October 25th, 2013 at 3:11 pm

    Who do they have to listen to in Chicago or in your area?

  139. mick October 25th, 2013 at 3:19 pm

    Not sure how you can stomach listening to Francesa.

    Because he’s a buffoon and doesn’t know jack about baseball in the modern age.
    ===============================
    Surprising as he is on Arod’s side as you are.

  140. Dill Pickler October 25th, 2013 at 4:46 pm

    Nice analysis, but a bit shallow re. the Cano-Pujuls situations.

    1. Cano is nearly a full year younger than Pujols.
    2. Pujols was coming off of his worst year in the majors — still a very good year, but perhaps a troubling sign for a one-dimensional first baseman who was going to turn 32 in January seeking a very long term deal. Not so for Cano, who just turned 31 three days ago.
    3. The Cardinals actually had a functioning minor league system with impact players ready to move up and contribute. The Yankees? David Adams. We’ve seen that movie. Not highly rated on Rotten Tomatoes.
    4. Cano plays a premium defensive position — 2nd base — and is still a gold-glove caliber defender — so getting the kind of offense the Yanks get from him is more valuable than getting that kind of offense from a first base/dh type. More valuable and much, much harder — if not impossible to replace. How many second basemen in history have hit like Cano?

    So, yeah, if Cano were a year older, played first base and was coming off a year in which virtually all of his offensive numbers declined, the comparison would be more valid.


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