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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Yankees setting up for a bullpen of risk and opportunity

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 18, 2013 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The idea of figuring out a bullpen during the season makes sense. We’ve always known that relievers are a big unreliable from year to year, and we saw the Cardinals and Red Sox go to the World Series with bullpens that had at least partially fallen apart and been put back together. Throwing massive amounts of money at relievers is probably not the best way to approach free agency. That makes sense.

But it’s still a bit odd to see all of these late-inning relievers landing elsewhere, while the Yankees depleted bullpen has added only a veteran lefty.

Today it’s Joaquin Benoit who’s come off the market, signing a two-year deal with the Padres. I assume he’ll be the setup man behind Huston Street.

There are still some potential impact relievers out there — Fernando Rodney probably has the highest profile; there are also higher risk options like Jesse Crain, Andrew Bailey and Chris Perez — but it seems the Yankees are going to have to find at least one impact reliever internally. Dave Robertson has a track record, and Shawn Kelley put himself in the picture with last year’s strikeout rate, but two relievers plus a hard-throwing lefty isn’t enough to build a bullpen.

I keep thinking of Jose Ramirez’s big fastball and relatively polished changeup, thinking that combination could play well in the bullpen. There is also Mark Montgomery looking to pitch himself back onto the map, the potential of David Phelps as a kind of do-it-all reliever, and the still tantalizing raw stuff of Dellin Betances. Half of the bullpen is relatively wide open, and it seems inevitable that someone is going to get a chance to sink or swim.

 
 

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244 Responses to “Yankees setting up for a bullpen of risk and opportunity”

  1. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    Historically the Yanks have been pretty good at figuring out bullpens…..however it was a lot easier to do with the huge safety net of #42 out there. It’s a pretty glaring weakness right now…..sure some guys could step up and make it a non issue…..but to me they need to fortify a little bit to take some of the “if” out of the equation.

  2. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:01 pm

    Jeff Passan ?@JeffPassan 1m
    Sources: Shin-Soo Choo turned down a seven-year, $140M contract from the Yankees, even after Jacoby Ellsbury signed. http://yhoo.it/1fEXkPp

    hello what?

  3. Howler December 18th, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    I only like Phelps as a reliever if you can get past his first inning of work…I still think some of your relief can be pieced together during spring.

  4. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    blake December 18th, 2013 at 11:56 am

    I called GM Brian Cashman this morning to ask what was up and was somewhat surprised by his response: “There are terms to do, physicals to take, items to be worked out when you do a contract … There’s no scoop here. Nothing’s falling apart. I don’t have time to deal with stupid questions like this.”

    http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo…..th-beltran

    —————–

    That’s unbecoming… Cash could have just not answered his call.

  5. kd December 18th, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    maybe they wanted choo to play 3b

    re: cashman. we all have bad days. his are just written about on the internet

  6. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    Unreal…

    I’m just seriously shocked at how many of you are convinced that the Yankees are nickel and diming their way through this winter.

    They have lost out on 1 free agent target – Robinson Cano – who signed a contract that no sane person thinks they should have matched.

    That they didn’t then panic and overpay for Omar Infante or Mark Ellis isn’t a sign of being cheap. Are Brian Roberts or Kelly Johnson going to replace Cano? Of course not. Are they better than Infante or Ellis? If all things were equal then I would say no they’re not. But all things aren’t equal and between them, Johnson and Roberts will still make less money than Ellis.

    After all the groaning that went on when they gave Soriano the contract they did, I’m shocked at how annoyed some of you are that they haven’t jumped into the deep end for relievers and shelled out $7, $8 or $10 mil a year for someone to set up for David Robertson.

    Some of you have already convinced yourself that the Yankees won’t spend on Tanaka when the fact is that he hasn’t even been made available yet. Or that they’re done spending money and the McCann, Ellsbury, Kuroda and Beltran signings were a smokescreen so that they could slash payroll…that’s a pretty expensive smokescreen if you ask me.

    The offseason started with a flurry of moves…the kind of big moves that you normally don’t see until right about this time. So the fact that there’s not a constant wave of big move after big move coming from the Yankees isn’t a sign of anything.

    You have to look at the market with a little objectivity:

    Starting Pitcher
    Tanaka’s not available yet.
    Signing Garza or Ubaldo before knowing if you can get Tanaka is silly

    Outfield
    Yankees don’t need anyone until/unless they decide to trade Gardner

    Infield
    Stephen Drew wants to play short stop. That means that before he’s ready to engage the Yankees about playing 2b or 3b he is going to make sure that there’s not a SS job out there right now that makes more sense for him.

    Bullpen
    We have seen one thing over and over again – you don’t need to spend big money to fill out your pen. The Red Sox took a flier on Uehara and he ended up supplanting both of Boston’s high priced closers. Trevor Rosenthal came out of no where to be the St. Louis closer.

    There is no replacement for Mariano Rivera – whether the Yankees signed Joe Nathan, Joaqim Benoit or Grant Balfour, none of those guys are replacing Rivera. You can build a bullpen in February or even March.

    In summary – relax.

  7. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    sounds like they pulled the offer when they signed Beltran

  8. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 12:01 pm
    @JeffPassan 1m

    Sources: Shin-Soo Choo turned down a seven-year, $140M contract from the Yankees, even after Jacoby Ellsbury signed

    WHAT NOOOOOOOOOO

    WTF?

  9. AAA December 18th, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    Jeff Passan ?@JeffPassan 1m
    Sources: Shin-Soo Choo turned down a seven-year, $140M contract from the Yankees, even after Jacoby Ellsbury signed. http://yhoo.it/1fEXkPp

    =======================================

    Wow! Did seem to get to the point where it was going to be either Choo or Beltran. Maybe Choo wasn’t interested in NYC?

  10. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    Cash has no filter anymore…..he just says whatever.

  11. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:01 pm

    Jeff Passan ?@JeffPassan 1m
    Sources: Shin-Soo Choo turned down a seven-year, $140M contract from the Yankees, even after Jacoby Ellsbury signed. http://yhoo.it/1fEXkPp

    ————-

    Whaaaaa..?

    Are the Yankees stealth in on Choo, still?

  12. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    Tim Brown ?@TBrownYahoo 2m
    Hearing the Beltran press conference has been scheduled for Friday in NY.

  13. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    Sounds like they wanted Choo but when Boras wanted more than 7/140 they moved on and signed Beltran instead.

  14. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    bold move of Boras to turn that down……he might still beat it but there is no guarantee.

  15. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    “I don’t have time to deal with stupid questions like this.”

    Cash sometimes says things that others will keep in their head. It’s only Wallace Matthews so I find it entertaining, in this case.

    Hopefully he is busy preparing for the release of the Tanaka.

  16. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    So Choo money = Beltran and (hopefully) Tanaka.

    Fine.

  17. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    7/140, can’t say the Yankees didn’t put up the money there.

  18. Kelvin December 18th, 2013 at 12:09 pm

    I had a good feeling the Yankees wanted Choo…

  19. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:11 pm

    Reposting these Brian Roberts 2013 stats so maybe some people can have some hope (not too high, just trying to be positive).

    OPS

    July .602
    August .705
    September .756

    Last 14 days .310 .370 .571 .941

    RISP: .340 .413 .480 .893

    Men on: .341 .413 .473 .885

    High Lvrge: .346 .404 .481 .884
    Medium Lvrge: .287 .354 .513 .867
    Low Lvrge: .153 .213 .204 .417

    5.1 UZR/150, .997 fld% (1 error in 301 chances).

  20. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    I think if Roberts can play 130 games he will be worth 2 or 3 wins…..but there is no telling if he can. He’s a total flyer.

  21. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 12:08 pm
    So Choo money = Beltran and (hopefully) Tanaka.

    Fine.

    Maybe total money, but not yearly, Beltran costs 15 per.

  22. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    I think if Roberts can play 130 games he will be worth 2 or 3 wins…..but there is no telling if he can. He’s a total flyer.
    ———————-

    But at $2 mil he’s worth taking.

  23. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:13 pm
    I think if Roberts can play 130 games he will be worth 2 or 3 wins…..but there is no telling if he can. He’s a total flyer.

    Yeah he’s one of those “if healthy” guys, at least this time it cost only 2 mil instead of 12.

  24. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    chip drank the pinstriped kool-ade!

    j/k :)

  25. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    I’m fine taking a shot on Roberts….but they should keep looking for better options. Just too much risk to count on him…..

  26. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    If the Yankees don’t sign Tanaka and the choices are keeping Gardner and signing Garza or dealing Gardner for a pitcher like (and I’m just throwing a name out there) Cliff Lee and replacing Gardner with Choo I think you go that route.

  27. I am Brett Godner December 18th, 2013 at 12:17 pm

    Spot on Chip. Well said. The only concern I have with their approach is I would have liked to see them buy one big bullpen arm in this market to setup/back up Robertson. Other than that the top 3 FA pitchers past Tanaka are crappy options and nothing moves until Tanaka is posted anyway. Roberts is not a white flag, he has all the hallmarks of a cheap place filler that might work but likely won’t. Johnson would be useful off the bench no matter who they found for 2nd and 3rd. Bad market to rebuild an infield and pick up a good front end starter and the market for creative moves and scraps doesn’t start until all the big pieces are set.

  28. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:15 pm
    I’m fine taking a shot on Roberts….but they should keep looking for better options. Just too much risk to count on him…..

    They only have so many roster spots though.

    Right now they have Roberts, Johnson, Ryan… and NUNIE!

  29. I am Brett Godner December 18th, 2013 at 12:19 pm

    If there is any truth to 7/$140 methinks Choo will really regret not taking it. Then again Boras is Jedi.

  30. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:19 pm

    blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    I’m fine taking a shot on Roberts….but they should keep looking for better options. Just too much risk to count on him…..
    ———————–

    Agreed which is why $2 million is a good number. Look, Mark Ellis is nothing special, but at what he’s making you are basically stuck with him. With Roberts, lets say that Drew wants to sign here or that in spring training Jose Pirela puts on an absolute show. At $2 million Roberts is a nice bench piece along with Cervelli, Ryan and hopefully Jeff Baker.

  31. JobaTipsHisCap December 18th, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    time and candidates are running out

  32. bigdan22 December 18th, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    bigdan22 December 18th, 2013 at 12:17 pm
    Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 12:01 pm
    @JeffPassan 1m

    Repost:

    Sources: Shin-Soo Choo turned down a seven-year, $140M contract from the Yankees, even after Jacoby Ellsbury signed

    WHAT NOOOOOOOOOO

    ———–

    So Beltran really wasn’t the first choice. Interesting. If true, you know Boras then must be focused on 8 years. Glad the Yanks didn’t go there.

  33. I am Brett Godner December 18th, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    Nunie blows.

    Btw auto correct wanted to change that to nudie blows which is a different comment all together.

  34. bigdan22 December 18th, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    Re-post

    I’m pleased to see that some folks are buying into the theory the Yanks payroll plan for 2014 is about reduction and not about 189. That 189 is most likely a PR ploy to distract the fan base and media from the unpleasant side-effects of cutting payroll. And for the most part, fans and media have signed on. Hopefully that changes. As most of you know, this is a theory I’ve been sugesting for weeks.

    But you know what, I don’t think a significant cut in payroll is a bad idea at all. I’m not a fan of the 189 lie (it’s really a total lie, it is better to describe as a low probability collateral benefit. A goal that could be reached if everything goes exactly right). I said weeks ago that I think the most efficient budget for the Yanks is between 210-220. You still would save maybe 20MM+ over last year plus considerable luxury tax savings. The rate of the luxury tax is not that important since it’s a marginal rate. The key is not to be $50MM over the threshold. Think of it, if you can add $20-30MM to this current team, now you got a real contender. $210-$220 is the best of both worlds. Save significant money out of pocket and put a real team on the field to get you to the playoffs were you make mo money, mo money, mo money.

    The point is, for this constructed team, there’s a huge marginal benefit from around 180 to 215. But from 215 to 240 hardly any, in my opinion.

    The problem is I think they’ll miss on Tanaka. But this post is long enough.

  35. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    If you recall, we talked about Choo as the second OF a month ago, and how he was “in the mix”. The FO thought they made a compelling offer, but this one might come back to haunt Boras.

  36. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    Nunie isn’t going to be on the roster

  37. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    bigdan22 December 18th, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    bigdan22 December 18th, 2013 at 12:17 pm
    Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 12:01 pm
    @JeffPassan 1m

    Repost:

    Sources: Shin-Soo Choo turned down a seven-year, $140M contract from the Yankees, even after Jacoby Ellsbury signed

    WHAT NOOOOOOOOOO

    ———–

    So Beltran really wasn’t the first choice. Interesting. If true, you know Boras then must be focused on 8 years. Glad the Yanks didn’t go there.
    ———————-

    I think the hierarchy was

    Beltran 2 years
    Choo 7 for $140
    Beltran 3 years

  38. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    why don’t we still sign Choo for 7/140 and trade Gardner for an infielder or pitcher!

  39. I am Brett Godner December 18th, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    Time is running out?

    Oh noes!

    Does the season start in January this year and no one told me? I better call and get my extra innings package set up.

  40. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    Random question –

    Roberts, Thornton and Beltran have to be added to the roster…who comes off?

  41. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    Chip -

    That is correct.

  42. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    why don’t we still sign Choo for 7/140 and trade Gardner for an infielder or pitcher!
    —————-

    If Tanaka doesn’t sign here I think that’s something they’ll consider.

  43. Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    Oh wait this isn’t shocking at all. We knew already that they had offers out to Choo & Beltran at the same time and it was up to them to pick. For some reason I thought Choo turned it down after they signed Beltran.

  44. BD (Boston Dave) December 18th, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    Texas will either pay huge money for Tanaka or Choo and maybe another pitcher.

    Choo will get paid, especially is the Yanks take Tanaka off the board.

  45. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    If the Yankees don’t sign Tanaka and the choices are keeping Gardner and signing Garza or dealing Gardner for a pitcher like (and I’m just throwing a name out there) Cliff Lee and replacing Gardner with Choo I think you go that route.

    ——————–

    I wonder if Choo will stay in the market until Tanaka’s deal is done… it might be a good move for him or it might limit his market further.

  46. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Chip -

    That would not be correct.

    Correct on hierarchy, incorrect on Choo back in.

    Choo would essentially be at 30M/year, with the marginal LT cost. Not seen as value by the FO.

    Tanaka, with tax, is.

  47. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Ballsy move by boras though

  48. AAA December 18th, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Oh wait this isn’t shocking at all. We knew already that they had offers out to Choo & Beltran at the same time and it was up to them to pick

    ===============================

    Exactly.

  49. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    Random question –

    Roberts, Thornton and Beltran have to be added to the roster…who comes off?

    ————-

    Wells if there’s any sort of justice in this world.

  50. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    Rangers are the ones who have made a choice between Tanaka and Choo, not NYY. Boras had better hope that Texas doesn’t win Tanaka.

  51. BD (Boston Dave) December 18th, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    Houston is rumored to be very interested in Choo.

    If all he cares about is the $$, he’ll be happy. If he’d have rather played for a contender, he may regret it if he doesn’t sign with Texas (now that the Yanks are done.)

  52. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    The difference between Choo and Tanaka in terms of money might end up being like $20-30 million.

  53. Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 12:29 pm

    Choo would essentially be at 30M/year, with the marginal LT cost. Not seen as value by the FO.

    That should not be how the Yankees view the LT. They should be looking at it as a tax on the entire expenditure to reach and surpass the threshold.

  54. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    “Rangers are the ones who have made a choice between Tanaka and Choo, not NYY. Boras had better hope that Texas doesn’t win Tanaka.”

    I think Boras has been hoping Detroit jumps in on Choo if they haven’t already…..he’s a really good fit for them

  55. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    JF -

    Like it or not, that’s how it is.

  56. Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    Like it or not, that’s how it is.

    But its not though?

  57. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    Beltran for 3 means no Choo for 8.

    I don’t know how I feel about that.

  58. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    ive been one of the most patient and balanced commenters on here concerning budgeting for a long time. i dont panic and i’m very patient.

    i’ve gone along with the theory behind the 189M budget for as long as we’ve discussed it.

    but the yankees actions in the past 2 weeks tell me that their plan is for a budget well below $200M.

    in fact there is a good chance the yankees will have the 3rd or 4th highest payroll in baseball.

    this is unacceptable to me.

    but im willing to wait until they bow out on tanaka to really get pissed.

    i hold out hope that this isnt the plan, which is still possible.

    but once they start filling the back end of the roster, they leave themselves nowhere to go and that’s what they are doing now.

    they’ve put themselves into a position that once the tanaka thing is settled, there are not real options to improve.

    and this team as currently constituded is very flawed.

    but we shall see soon enough.

  59. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    Speaking more to this thread’s topic – the bullpen. I hope Chad’s wrong and that they don’t look at Jose Ramirez in the pen. I think he has bigtime starter stuff and would like to see that developed.

    Montgomery
    Whitley
    Betances
    Claiborne
    Cabral
    Burawa
    Phelps (assuming they sign one pitcher and Pineda wins the 5th spot)

    Will all have chances to compete for spots and join Kelley, Robertson and Thornton in the pen.

  60. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    blake -

    Detroit may not work either for Choo, though I like him there (his D will not be as exposed), as they actually have LT concerns of their own going forward (need to sign Scherzer and Miggy).

  61. BD (Boston Dave) December 18th, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    “I think Boras has been hoping Detroit jumps in on Choo if they haven’t already…..he’s a really good fit for them”

    —–

    Detroit would be better suited extending Scherezer…. but he would fit nicely into that lineup. You’d think he’d be a lock for 120+ runs if you slot him in front of Miggy.

  62. AAA December 18th, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    Rangers are the ones who have made a choice between Tanaka and Choo, not NYY. Boras had better hope that Texas doesn’t win Tanaka.

    =====================================

    I don’t imagine Choo has much to worry about.

  63. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    Like it or not, that’s how it is.

    But its not though?

    —–

    Not sure what you mean?

  64. Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    Not sure what you mean?

    The tax doesn’t really work that way and unless you have proof that the Yankees actually believe that then its not how it is.

  65. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    “Detroit may not work either for Choo, though I like him there (his D will not be as exposed), as they actually have LT concerns of their own going forward (need to sign Scherzer and Miggy).’

    their current offense isn’t all that good…..

  66. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    If the Rangers end up with Tanaka, conventional wisdom would say they’d be out on Choo… but again, lots of money coming off those books.

  67. I am Brett Godner December 18th, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    “Shin-Soo Choo rejected a seven-year, $140 million contract offer from the Yankees, reports Yahoo! Sports’ Jeff Passan.
    Choo’s agent Scott Boras countered that he was looking for “Ellsbury money,” according to the report. New York signed Jacoby Ellsbury to a seven-year, $148 million contract earlier this month.”

    That made me laugh.

  68. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 12:26 pm
    Oh wait this isn’t shocking at all. We knew already that they had offers out to Choo & Beltran at the same time and it was up to them to pick. For some reason I thought Choo turned it down after they signed Beltran.

    Yes, the surprising part is that they offered 7/140 to Choo.

  69. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:35 pm

    Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    If the Yankees don’t sign Tanaka and the choices are keeping Gardner and signing Garza or dealing Gardner for a pitcher like (and I’m just throwing a name out there) Cliff Lee and replacing Gardner with Choo I think you go that route.

    ——————–

    I wonder if Choo will stay in the market until Tanaka’s deal is done… it might be a good move for him or it might limit his market further.
    —————-

    I think he does for the simple reason that Boras is smart. He knows what we know. The Yankees need another pitcher and their options are to overspend for Garza or Ubaldo or deal Brett Gardner to acquire pitching.

    Boras has shown before (Fielder, Bourn, Loshe) that he’s not in any rush to get his guys signed – in fact the most shocking part about the Ellsbury signing to most baseball people was that a high profile Boras client came off the board so early.

  70. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    Not sure what you mean?

    The tax doesn’t really work that way and unless you have proof that the Yankees actually believe that then its not how it is.

    The calculation of the tax doesn’t work that way, but the math does. Pretty simple… once you get to the tax bracket, there is an incremental cost of 50%, hence 20 = 30. Or in Arod’s case, 33 = 50.

    And that IS their thinking.

  71. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    no matter how much groceries i bought yesterday, if i’m deciding whether i can afford a half gallon of ice cream today i have to factor in the sales tax on the ice cream.

    i could do a review of all the purchases i made and what the tax on those items was, but today i can’t do anything about those items.

    the ice cream’s cost is the price plus the tax.

    (in states where ice cream is taxable that is…)

  72. bigdan22 December 18th, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    Tar December 18th, 2013 at 8:32 am

    There is some fatal flaw going on with UZR , I’m not sure what it is….. but i do know that Pedy has not been so much better than Cano at their positions. UZR is not even close when it comes to the two of them.

    Not sure if it’s defensive positioning, camera angle, bias or just simply garbage in, garbage out. But something is way out of whack. I am not that bad at watching this game or am I that biased that I am that wrong ( not to mention all those that feel like I do).

    I would love to see a compilation of all the balls that were hit in zone that Cano missed.

    ____________

    Saw this earlier and wanted to comment. Sometime in the middle of the 2012 season, folks were doing a comparison of Cano’s and Pedroia’s respective WARs. Both players were having similarly fine offensive seasons but Pedroia’s WAR was twice Cano’s. Something like 6 to 3 or 5 to 2.5. It was said it was because of defensive metrics. At that time, I couldn’t get my head around how any performance measurement would rate Pedroia and Cano that differently. I can accept that Pedroia may be a better fielder than Cano but I don’t think that could possibly make him twice the value on the WAR scale.

    “I don’t trust WAR. I never did. I never will.”

    –Mac Sledge

  73. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Chip -

    That would not be correct.

    Correct on hierarchy, incorrect on Choo back in.

    Choo would essentially be at 30M/year, with the marginal LT cost. Not seen as value by the FO.

    Tanaka, with tax, is.
    ————————

    At the Ellsbury press conference Cashman made an interesting statement. It was about trading Brett Gardner and he said something along the lines of it would only make sense to him in conjunction with another move that made the outfield better if Gardner wasn’t there. To me that says “if we move Gardner I’m signing Choo”

  74. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    they’ve put themselves into a position that once the tanaka thing is settled, there are not real options to improve.

    They can still improve by adding a different starting pitcher and possibly a reliever.

  75. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    Here is a cool hope.

    -Boras holds Choo until sometime in January waiting on the right offer…..everyone backs off.
    -The Yankees sign Tanaka and go over 189 officially.
    -Jack Z calls and says he thinks he needs a lead off guy because his job is on the line and he might get canned if they don’t win in 2014 so he wants Gardner for Ackley and maybe a prospect.
    - Yanks make the trade and say screw it we are over 189 already lets re-offer that 7/140 to Choo.
    - Boras accepts and

    Ellsbury CF
    Jeter SS
    Choo RF
    Beltran LF
    McCann C
    Tex 1B
    Soriano DH
    Johnson 3B
    Ackley 2B

    Sabathia, Kuroda, Nova, Tanaka, Phelps/Pineda.

  76. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    Chip,

    Are you saying Boras believes the Yankees will rejoin the market for Choo and Boras is banking on the Yankees dealing Gardner for a pitcher so as to avoid Ubaldo or Garza?

  77. I am Brett Godner December 18th, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    “(in states where ice cream is taxable that is…)”

    Ice cream should never be taxed.

  78. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    I think they only move Gardner for a good pitcher that would save them from spending a lot on a starter (like Bailey), and then they might spend that starter money on Choo.

    But then you have to think how that affects things going forward.

  79. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    At the Ellsbury press conference Cashman made an interesting statement. It was about trading Brett Gardner and he said something along the lines of it would only make sense to him in conjunction with another move that made the outfield better if Gardner wasn’t there. To me that says “if we move Gardner I’m signing Choo”

    Chip –

    The thinking was actually, “if I sign Choo, I’m moving Gardner”. The rest of it is “for SP”.

  80. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    At the Ellsbury press conference Cashman made an interesting statement. It was about trading Brett Gardner and he said something along the lines of it would only make sense to him in conjunction with another move that made the outfield better if Gardner wasn’t there. To me that says “if we move Gardner I’m signing Choo”

    ____________

    Interesting. Is it possible Cashman tipped off Boras?

  81. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    Ellsbury CF
    Jeter SS
    Choo RF
    Beltran LF
    McCann C
    Tex 1B
    Soriano DH
    Johnson 3B
    Ackley 2B

    Sabathia, Kuroda, Nova, Tanaka, Phelps/Pineda.

    ———————–

    Yes.

  82. Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    The calculation of the tax doesn’t work that way, but the math does. Pretty simple… once you get to the tax bracket, there is an incremental cost of 50%, hence 20 = 30. Or in Arod’s case, 33 = 50.

    And that IS their thinking.

    By what proof do you know that is their thinking? They could just apply the tax to anything that would put them over the top. The player benefits. The unsettled arbitration cases (Which will come after any other theoretical signings). A-rod. Etc.

    If they are thinking that way then they are dumber than I ever thought possible.

  83. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    If I’m trading Gardner to the M’s, I want Franklin coming back, not Ackley, even if I have to add to Gardner.

  84. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    “bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:37 pm
    they’ve put themselves into a position that once the tanaka thing is settled, there are not real options to improve.

    They can still improve by adding a different starting pitcher and possibly a reliever.”
    =========================================
    the bidding period is 30 days for posted players. lets say he actually becomes available on monday, the 23nd. even if he signs in 21 days instead of the full 30, do you really think there will be a bunch of pitchers available by then.

    as each team drops out of the bidding, they will start right up negotiating with the others. the last bidders on tanaka may well miss out on all the decent FA pitchers.

  85. Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 12:44 pm

    no matter how much groceries i bought yesterday, if i’m deciding whether i can afford a half gallon of ice cream today i have to factor in the sales tax on the ice cream.

    i could do a review of all the purchases i made and what the tax on those items was, but today i can’t do anything about those items.

    the ice cream’s cost is the price plus the tax.

    (in states where ice cream is taxable that is…)

    Ok but this agrees with my take. Your ice cream and all your groceries are taxed at the same rate for the bulk amount of what you purchased. The luxury tax is assessed in 1 year based on the sum of all items purchased + benefits. Theres absolutely no reason to assess the value of Choo at his AAV+tax when the tax could equally be applied to ANY item on the roster.

  86. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:44 pm

    JF -

    WADR, the addition of tax and its considerations is a fundamental of business planning.

    Speaking globally, why do you think there is so much money sitting offshore and not being returned to the US to reinvest in American manufacturing? It’s called Excise Tax.

  87. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 12:42 pm
    “bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:37 pm
    they’ve put themselves into a position that once the tanaka thing is settled, there are not real options to improve.

    They can still improve by adding a different starting pitcher and possibly a reliever.”
    =========================================
    the bidding period is 30 days for posted players. lets say he actually becomes available on monday, the 23nd. even if he signs in 21 days instead of the full 30, do you really think there will be a bunch of pitchers available by then.

    as each team drops out of the bidding, they will start right up negotiating with the others. the last bidders on tanaka may well miss out on all the decent FA pitchers.

    This is true. It means if you get into the late bidding for Tanaka, you better make sure you win or have something in your back pocket.

  88. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    Jeff Passan works for… Yahoo?

    Yeah, I’m sure he’s rolling in legit sources.

    Don’t take anything you read on twitter seriously.

    Seriously.

  89. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    Ok but this agrees with my take. Your ice cream and all your groceries are taxed at the same rate for the bulk amount of what you purchased. The luxury tax is assessed in 1 year based on the sum of all items purchased + benefits. Theres absolutely no reason to assess the value of Choo at his AAV+tax when the tax could equally be applied to ANY item on the roster.

    Wrong. The tax kicks in at 189, not 1.

  90. hardwired7 December 18th, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    One thing they’ll have going for them in ’14 is not having the bullpen warmup by the 3rd inning in every one of Hughes’ starts.

    The biggest disappointment of the last few years is not seeing him develop into the frontline pitcher most of us thought he would be. He went from Young Master Hughes to an absolute bullpen destroyer.

  91. Yes You McCann December 18th, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    Has Scott Boras ever negotiated an extension for a star player with more than a year until the player reached UFA?

  92. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    I think Yahoo sports reporting has actually been pretty decent.

  93. Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    Tim Brown and Jeff Passan have pretty good sources, just because they work for a national outlet does not mean otherwise. Tim Brown broke like 5 things last year or the year before I forget but he was on fire.

  94. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    Wrong. The tax kicks in at 189, not 1.

    I think what JF is trying to say is that the tax essentially makes all the players/expenditures a little more expensive, not just one.

  95. hardwired7 December 18th, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    “Has Scott Boras ever negotiated an extension for a star player with more than a year until the player reached UFA?”

    More money in it for him if they reach UFA.

  96. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    bbb51 -

    I think what JF is trying to say is that the tax essentially makes all the players/expenditures a little more expensive, not just one.

    —-

    That’s fair, after the fact. However, at the time the investment is being analyzed, the incremental cost is AAV + 50%.

    Pure and simple, if the NYY are at 189 now (for discussion purposes), the next expenditure will cost them AAV + 50%.

  97. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    jf i agree with your take in that you can look at it alot of different ways.

    but your suggested way of looking at it removes the element of time.

    each decision stands on the shoulders of the last decision. sure they could have donw something differently in the past that would have changed the current circumstance.

    but we are where we are and when deciding whether to sign or not sign someone, we can’t go back in time and unsign or renegotiate what we’ve already done.

    so the decision rests on the cost of the contract we’re about to sign and that cost is the cost plus the LT (PLUS the revenue sharing money they’d lose based on the new contract)

    you can ‘look at it’ any way you want but thats the way it has to be entered into the ledger.

  98. blake December 18th, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    Jeff Passan works for… Yahoo?

    Yeah, I’m sure he’s rolling in legit sources.

    Don’t take anything you read on twitter seriously.

    Seriously.”

    Passan breaks stuff all the time

  99. I am Brett Godner December 18th, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    Thinking that a $20m contract over the LT is actually a $30m contract is just a short hand way of budgeting. It all comes out the same. Odd little argument.

  100. Tackelberry December 18th, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 12:40 pm
    At the Ellsbury press conference Cashman made an interesting statement. It was about trading Brett Gardner and he said something along the lines of it would only make sense to him in conjunction with another move that made the outfield better if Gardner wasn’t there. To me that says “if we move Gardner I’m signing Choo
    ____________________________________________

    I would have been in favor of dealing Gardner for Austin Jackson if that rumor actually had any traction to it.

  101. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    blake- If I start now, I could randomly post things to twitter and “break” something too.

    “Choo’s agent Scott Boras countered that he was looking for “Ellsbury money,” according to the report.”

    148/7=21.1
    140/7=20

    That certainly looks like “ellsbury money” to me. Something doesn’t smell right.

  102. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    I see nothing redeeming in “breaking” a news story 5 minutes before everyone else knows. It’s the 50 “wrong” things they post that makes me stop listening way before that point.

  103. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    Pure and simple, if the NYY are at 189 now (for discussion purposes), the next expenditure will cost them AAV + 50%.

    __________

    And because the Yankees have publicly pursued this level of spending, they can introduce it into negotiations with teams looking to dump contracts like Phillips, Kemp, Lee, Utley, A. Ramirez, etc.

  104. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    i like choo. but he has to be pinch hit for in late inning situations vs. rhp.

    i’d never give him either 7 years or $20M per year.

    in fact i wouldnt’ go above about $13M and 4 years.

    he’s asking for (and likely to get) double what i think his value is.

  105. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    Irreverent Discourse says:
    December 18, 2013 at 12:59 pm
    I see nothing redeeming in “breaking” a news story 5 minutes before everyone else knows. It’s the 50 “wrong” things they post that makes me stop listening way before that point.

    He’s a real writer man….yahoo isn’t exactly some random website

  106. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    sorry lhp’s … duh!

  107. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    @SportsMeter: Omar Vizquel giving instruction today to Tigers 3B Nick Castellanos #learningfromthebest #believeit http://t.co/mOZH0RIohl

    The yanks tried to do this with Nunie but Omar left cursing after 15 minutes

  108. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    “I see nothing redeeming in “breaking” a news story 5 minutes before everyone else knows.
    =====================================
    exactly why i dont do twitter. it’s an irrelevant race to ‘be first’.

    i can wait a few minutes.

  109. I am Brett Godner December 18th, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    “And because the Yankees have publicly pursued this level of spending, they can introduce it into negotiations with teams looking to dump contracts like Phillips, Kemp, Lee, Utley, A. Ramirez, etc.”

    That is an excellent point. As long as they keep the dream barely alive they can also use it for negotiating and if they tip over it they can use the above tact. The off season PR and ‘leaks’ make so much more sense when you realize they are more for other teams and FA than they are us. Hot stove baby hot stove.

  110. I am Brett Godner December 18th, 2013 at 1:07 pm

    Internet bad. Damn kids today.

  111. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    blake- I don’t… care? I’ve read his stuff, and just like all of the other Yahoo writers… it’s just not that good.

    I have an opinion. Can you live with that?

    These twitter junkies that post everything they hear in a bathroom stall do not impress me at all.

  112. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    players and agents dont care about the yankees budget situation.

    they just want the money, your budget is your problem.

    boras probably falls of the chair laughing at levine telling him about the yankees ‘budget woes’

  113. Against All Odds December 18th, 2013 at 1:12 pm

    Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:06 pm
    “I see nothing redeeming in “breaking” a news story 5 minutes before everyone else knows.
    =====================================
    exactly why i dont do twitter. it’s an irrelevant race to ‘be first’.

    i can wait a few minutes.

    ——————–

    It’s just another form of media. Yrs from now news probably won’t be broken through the radio or tv.

  114. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    AAO – It’s the lack of responsibility that turns me off, “journalists” aren’t held accountable for anything they post on social media.

  115. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    you want to know what boras’s reply would be to levine telling him the yankees can’t afford a client because of the 189 threshold?

    ‘sorry randy, i think i need a towel, i laughed so hard my sparkling water came out my nose!

  116. ac1 December 18th, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    HardballTalk ?@HardballTalk 45m
    Report: Shin-Soo Choo rejected a $140 million deal from the Yankees http://wp.me/p14QSL-27Yz
    __

    This is why everyone needs to take a step back before complaining about every single deal the yankees don’t make. Choo is NOT worth more than 140M.

  117. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    Wasn’t Jeff Passan the writer that was getting trolled on twitter or something so in response he went internet detective and called the guy’s mother?

  118. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    If it’s true, I really hope the Yankees pulled that deal off the table now. $20mil/year for Choo is probably going to be worse than the Hamilton/Pujols/Cano deals.

  119. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:20 pm

    Irreverent Discourse says:
    December 18, 2013 at 1:18 pm
    If it’s true, I really hope the Yankees pulled that deal off the table now. $20mil/year for Choo is probably going to be worse than the Hamilton/Pujols/Cano deals.

    Might be better than 7/153 for Jacoby

  120. AAA December 18th, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    I have an opinion. Can you live with that?

    ===========================

    Ironic.

  121. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    blake – Yeah, except that Ellsbury is already signed. Do they need to double down on $20mil/year guys that have only ever had 2 good seasons?

  122. ac1 December 18th, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    Blake I don’t know that 7/140 for Choo would be worse than 7/153 for Ellsbury.

    They are both too much….

  123. ac1 December 18th, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    I am sure the Choo offer was before Ellsbury signed.
    No way they go for Choo, Ellsbury and Beltran.

  124. Mike Ri December 18th, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    The Choo Choo Train !

  125. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    @ChrisCotillo: #Rockies will acquire Drew Stubbs from the #Indians, according to @Ken_Rosenthal and @jonmorosi

  126. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    I think Choo was before Beltran signed.

  127. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    ac1 says:
    December 18, 2013 at 1:23 pm
    Blake I don’t know that 7/140 for Choo would be worse than 7/153 for Ellsbury.

    I think Choo is better than Ellsbury so naturally Id rather have him for less money.

  128. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    Choo for 7 years 140 is fair in the current market. I am not sure if I’d rather have that player for that money or Ellsbury for the money he got.

  129. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    And I know this was after Ellsbury signed…..just saying

  130. Against All Odds December 18th, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 1:15 pm
    AAO – It’s the lack of responsibility that turns me off, “journalists” aren’t held accountable for anything they post on social media.

    ———————

    They are to some degree. I mean when they say things that turn out to be wrong they get destroyed for it for months sometimes yrs. Them throwing things over twitter is no different then going on the radio and tv and saying the same thing. Hell in many cases they just repeat the same stuff on both platforms.

  131. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    ac1/Bret – I agree, it had to have been early in this “process”. Like I said, I hope it’s not on the table anymore and he ends up with less.

    If he’s supposedly waiting for 8 years, he might be waiting for a long time.

  132. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    Hey Bret weren’t you insistent that Pence’s contract would hold Choo’s market down? I remember maybe a month ago us arguing whether Choo would get over 100 million.

  133. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    Hunter Pence got 5 years 90 million so 18 AAV

    Choo at 7 years 140 million at 20 AAV is pretty much market rate.

  134. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    Patrick,

    The Yankees offer to Choo doesn’t veer too much from Pence. Of course, one dumb owner leaves a wildcard.

  135. ac1 December 18th, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    It takes some balls to turn down a 7/140 deal…
    I am on the fence about Choo v Ellsbury.
    Ellsbury may be a little better but is a big injury risk.

    But if I am the Yankees and Choo turns down 140M, i move on.

  136. Yes You McCann December 18th, 2013 at 1:29 pm

    “More money in it for him if they reach UFA.”

    My point was I dont believe that Boras was ever interested in negotiating an extension for Cano 2 years ago.

  137. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    Bret – Technically $20mil/year for Choo is below “market” rate but… the market is not trying to build a winning team, the market is only trying to make the market higher.

  138. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    Choo is a much more consistent hitter than Ellsbury….at their ages gimmi the better bat…..especially when one guy breaks in half every time he bumps in to something

  139. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    YS Guy,

    Well of course teams know the Yankees will spend AAV + 50% on their next acquisition but the level of willingness to do that is the variable that shapes negotiations. And we all know posturing is used in negotiations regardless of ultimate outcomes.

  140. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    If Ellsbury and Brian Roberts collided on a pop up I’m not sure there would be survivors

  141. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    Chip,

    Are you saying Boras believes the Yankees will rejoin the market for Choo and Boras is banking on the Yankees dealing Gardner for a pitcher so as to avoid Ubaldo or Garza?
    ———————

    Yup, that’s what I’m saying.

  142. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    Hunter Pence got 5 years 90 million so 18 AAV

    Choo at 7 years 140 million at 20 AAV is pretty much market rate.

    So if the Yankees offered Choo 1 year 18 million that would be right in line with Pence? Uhh….

    AAV is not that important when it comes to these 7-10 year deals, it’s all about the total money the player is getting because this is likely the last significant contract they will get. This is why Cano left despite getting a lower AAV from the Mariners. Choo is getting offered $50 million more than Pence, that is nowhere CLOSE to what Pence got, it’s not even in the same ballpark.

    Pence was overpaid by the giants and it inflated the market for other outfielders. As I predicted, Choo is getting offers WELL over 100 million.

  143. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    I predicted Choo at 20 AAV based mostly on the Pence recent precedent. The Yankees bullseyed my target. I’m not ashamed.

  144. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    the market doesnt try to do anything.

  145. I am Brett Godner December 18th, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    “Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:16 pm
    you want to know what boras’s reply would be to levine telling him the yankees can’t afford a client because of the 189 threshold?

    ‘sorry randy, i think i need a towel, i laughed so hard my sparkling water came out my nose!”

    I think part of the reason Boras is good at what he does is that he never seems to get caught up in the media pressure and doesn’t give a damn if he is cast in a bad light, but I guarantee there are some that get as caught up in it as we do. Heck They are more personally invested than we are. Personally I think that happened a bit with JayZ and Cano. If boras was still there Cano might have signed with Ms anyway because that was serious coin, but I doubt it would have happened that quickly.

  146. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    I thought Choo and Ellsbury would both get around 5/100. The market has been inflated like 1/3 almost across the board…..

  147. I am Brett Godner December 18th, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    “blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:31 pm
    If Ellsbury and Brian Roberts collided on a pop up I’m not sure there would be survivors”

    They might take a few other players and an ump out in the explosion too.

  148. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    I predicted Choo at 20 AAV based mostly on the Pence recent precedent. The Yankees bullseyed my target. I’m not ashamed.

    Revisionist history .. You said Choo and Pence would get around the same amount of money, NOT around the same AAV. But if it makes you feel better, believe whatever you want.

  149. mick December 18th, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    Supposedly Cano went to the NYY’s for an extension a few years ago.
    This was all subterfuge as he knew they would turn it down and he could use it against them for PR purposes ?
    Only Boras could think that one up…

  150. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    i said right away that i thought ellsbury was an overpay. (not vs. the market but vs. what his acutal value will turn out to be.)

    i think choo would be even more of an overpay.

    but that’s just my opinion.

    the market says these guys are worth this money, so that’s what they’re worth.

  151. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    the market doesnt try to do anything.

    ————–

    LOL, was thinking the same thing.

  152. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    No, I said Choo would earn a little more than Pence per year but less than Ellsbury per year. Number of years never came up in either Ellsbury or Pence’s precedents. Total number of years was never discussed, thus total money was not discussed. I was fixated on 18 per year for Pence and my initial statement about Pence cited 18 M, the AAV not 90 M, the total.

    Revisionist history my ass.

  153. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    LOL, was thinking the same thing.

    The market has become self aware .. Skynet is taking over

  154. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    this is the price of not developing players.

  155. mick December 18th, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    Very likely we have a repeat of 2013 with a few injuries next year.
    Jeter and Tex being the prime suspects.

  156. Yes You McCann December 18th, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    Any player is worth whatever a team wants to pay to acquire his services.

  157. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    Whatever you say Bret.

  158. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    I thought Choo and Ellsbury would both get around 5/100. The market has been inflated like 1/3 almost across the board…..

    —————-

    Yeah, I thought after the Pence deal Choo would get over $100, but I didn’t think it’d be by as much as it will end up being. The Ellsbury deal really is amazing.

  159. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    Go look for the 90 M figure, the total amount and see if you can find a place where I cited it. Then go look for the 18 M figure and the 20 M figure and get back to me, Patrick. So then we can go by “whatever you say”.

  160. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    they have to go full rebuild.

    the knicks that is…..

    trade melo!

  161. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    Chip,

    I hope you’re right and that Choo is still in play. Just because supposedly turned down the supposed offer doesn’t necessarily mean he will definitely get more and will never under any circumstances come back to the table. I’ll get off the Choo train when he lands somewhere else, officially.

  162. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    Ys Guy,

    What do you want for Melo?

    I’m the Charlotte Boobcats.

  163. ac1 December 18th, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    I realize Boras was able to squeeze 13 extra mil out of the yankees, and maybe I’m just a yankee fan, but if they come to me with 7/140 and i know the market will at most give me 10-15 mil more, but to play for a team like Seattle, I am taking the Yankees offer.

    Again, just me.

    Cano is different, that was 65M, but for 10 mil?

    I am not risking the collapse in the market.

    Why would Texas raise their offer now that the Yankees are out?

  164. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    Bret, Why would I search through the blog archives looking for random quotes when I just agreed with you? I don’t have time for that nonsense.

    5 years 90 million == 7 years 140 million. got it.

  165. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    Let’s say Tanaka signs with the Cubs. The Yankees can potentially either sign Matt Garza for 6 at $17 mil or they can try to trade Gardner to (again just throwing out names) Chicago for Jeff Smardjaza then sign Choo for 7 at $22.

    I would rather give the extra year and $52 mil to Choo I think.

  166. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Because maybe Texas doesn’t believe the Yankees are officially out quite yet.

  167. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    Bret, Why would I search through the blog archives looking for random quotes when I just agreed with you? I don’t have time for that nonsense.
    ——————

    What kind of nonsense do you have time for?

  168. ac1 December 18th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    How would Choo still be in play?
    We have Ellsbury and Beltran (though that hasn’t been finalized).
    We have Gardner and others in the OF.

    If there is 20M to spend, it better be on Tanaka and a 2B and 3B.

  169. Yes You McCann December 18th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Need to trade Melo and rebuild.

  170. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    ac1 December 18th, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    How would Choo still be in play?
    We have Ellsbury and Beltran (though that hasn’t been finalized).
    We have Gardner and others in the OF.

    If there is 20M to spend, it better be on Tanaka and a 2B and 3B.
    ———————

    Choo’s only in play if the Yankees trade Gardner.

  171. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    evan robers on the shin soo choo offer:

    “i think the yankees are very fortunate that scott boras is crazy”

  172. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    trade melo, trade chandler and get a new coach to start with.

  173. wanzies222 December 18th, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    Bret -

    Just to keep your hopes up, there actually IS a scenario that would put Choo on the NYY roster, but so many different things would have to happen, like Bailey, Gardner, Arod and “the market” softening…. Could all those things come together? Sure? Likely? Who knows.

    I’ll still believe that the Reds, Phillies, Rangers and Tigers are done when they are done.

  174. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    Well the Boobcats aren’t trading Coach Clifford.

    What happened with Van Gundy?

  175. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 1:49 pm

    If we’re going to discuss nonsense can we go back to talking about the markets wants and needs and insecurities…?

  176. Against All Odds December 18th, 2013 at 1:49 pm

    Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:38 pm
    this is the price of not developing players.

    ———————–

    You can say that again. It always goes back to that

  177. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    What kind of nonsense do you have time for?

    I don’t know, we could always start naming houses from A Song of Ice and Fire again? It’s just too tedious to search for a conversation that happened weeks ago. I know I’m right but I don’t really care about proving it.

  178. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    Thank you wanzies. Gotta keep hope alive.

  179. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    shame – is it really that hard to follow what i said?

    The market is not a person, I get that.

  180. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    Thomas Harding ?@harding_at_mlb 4m
    #Rockies close to reacquiring LHP Franklin Morales from #RedSox along with Minor League RHP Chris Martin. Details coming

  181. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    …for Carlos Gonzalez!!!

  182. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:53 pm

    I’m not sure the level of pitcher the Yanks want or need can be had for Gardner…..I think they just need to sign Tanaka on the pitching front and then let Phelps and Pineda fight for the 5th spot.

    If Gardner can be moved for a future option at 3B, SS, or 2B then I’d consider that as well and keep Choo in play…..

  183. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    It’s me, I’m the market.

  184. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    nobody complained about the tv show conversation this morning.

    at least the knicks are sports and ny related.

  185. Yes You McCann December 18th, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    Fire this loser Woodson. I thought the same thing during last season and during the playoffs. Not because poor start this season.

    Dont want Van Gundy. Classless. Already on quit on team once.

    Trade Melo, Chandler, try trading Amar’e in offseason as expiring contract.

    The Clippers may want Melo, he’s best friends with CP3. He would also help Clips owner secure new deal.

  186. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    Ys Guy,

    What would you want from Boobcats for Melo?

    He would crap his pants if sent here.

  187. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    shame – is it really that hard to follow what i said?

    ———–

    It’s just funny dude, relax.

    Everyone is so serious and we’re still 60 days from pitchers and catchers.

  188. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    Send Melo to Charloot. Banish him to NBA purgatory. Punish him. PUNISH HIM!!!!!!!!

  189. blake December 18th, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Gardner for Roughed Odor…..then sign Choo

  190. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    It’s just funny dude, relax.

    Everyone is so serious and we’re still 60 days from pitchers and catchers.

    Do you REALLY not understand his amazing analysis? Get on my level bro

  191. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    My best friend is a Knicks fan and he swears I should not want Melo and he would not wish Melo upon Charlotte.

  192. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    The really funny thing about the statement ‘the market is only trying to make the market higher’ is that the Yankees are actually the ones that made the market higher for Choo lol.

  193. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    The Knicks will never be good… maybe ever.

  194. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    Ken Rosenthal ?@Ken_Rosenthal 1m
    Herrera excellent fit as utility IFer for #RedSox. One #Rockies exec describes him as a “professional ball catcher.”

    I’m a professional ball washer. This is Peter Gammons.

  195. Bret The Hitman December 18th, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    Ounce for ounce, Wild Planet sardines provide more calcium and phosphorous than milk, more iron than spinach, more potassium than coconut water and bananas and as much protein as steak. One can of Wild Planet sardines contains 313mg EPA and 688mg DHA Omega 3 and is an ample source of Vitamin B12, Vitamin D and selenium. Sardines contain Coenzyme Q10, a nutrient found in the body’s cells and believed to have antioxidant and immune system boosting properties.

    STICK THAT IN YOUR EAR VEGANS!!!

  196. Jerkface December 18th, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    “Woah im so high” – the market

  197. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    The Rockies have re-arranged a lot of furniture and the room still looks terrible.

  198. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    They’re saying if Tanaka posts it will probably be mid-January.. if those negotiations take 3 weeks, he’ll be signing a deal and shipped to pitchers and catchers almost immediately.

  199. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Brian MacPherson ?@brianmacp 46s
    Herrera trade doesn’t preclude Drew returning, but then a move inevitably would be made with Middlebrooks. That’d be too many infielders.

    yanks need to pounce on Drew.

  200. ac1 December 18th, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    I think the Yanks can wait Tanaka out.
    I believe between Phelps, Warren, Pineda, Nuno, etc they can fill two spots, plus I doubt any other pitchers will be signed before Tanaka posts. Garza, Jimenez and Santana will still be there.

  201. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    if they could trade with each other I’d suggest a Middlebrooks for Gardner deal and then sign Choo

  202. ac1 December 18th, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    I doubt drew will agree to play 3B, so it will likely take way too much to get him here.

  203. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    dont’ think the pitching market will wait until mid January to move…..Garza will probably go to the Angels soon I would think.

  204. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    “I doubt drew will agree to play 3B, so it will likely take way too much to get him here.”

    I have no idea…..but if Boston is holding the line at 2 years with him then I’d have no problem going to 3 if that would get him on board with playing a little 3B temporarily.

  205. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    If the market was a cartoon it would look like Bill: http://www.ipswitchft.com/blog.....8/bill.png

  206. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    dont’ think the pitching market will wait until mid January to move…..Garza will probably go to the Angels soon I would think.

    —————-

    Comparing the total money for both deals will be fun.

    Can Garza get something crazy like 6/130..?

  207. Yes You McCann December 18th, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    the knicks and rangers will never compete as long as James Dolan runs the show.

    George M Steinbrenner III was a Stanley Cup Champion with the Devils!!!!

  208. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    I don’t think Garza gets 20 per even in this market…..I said 5/85 back at the start of the winter…..I’m not sure the pitching market will be as robust as the hitter market…..maybe I”m wrong

  209. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    “No one here understands how I work.” — The Market

  210. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    Was the Grantland article posted yet? It’s called The New Normal for the New York Yankees.

    http://www.grantland.com/story.....rk-yankees

  211. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    I don’t understand the Rockies at all. They make a lot of moves but I don’t think any of them ever make the team better.

  212. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    I don’t think Garza gets 20 per even in this market…..I said 5/85 back at the start of the winter…..I’m not sure the pitching market will be as robust as the hitter market…..maybe I”m wrong
    ————-

    I think 6 years at between $15 and $17/year

  213. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    “I don’t understand the Rockies at all. They make a lot of moves but I don’t think any of them ever make the team better.”

    It’s called…..being clueless

  214. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    Chip,

    Wow that’s steep for Garza .. I wouldn’t give him more than 3/$40M

  215. pkyankfan69 December 18th, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    I don’t understand the Rockies at all. They make a lot of moves but I don’t think any of them ever make the team better.
    —————-
    Agreed… They should trade us Tulo for Nuney, Sanchez, Ramirez, $40M, and a high five.

  216. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_.....src=mobile

    Tanaka mania

  217. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    Agreed… They should trade us Tulo for Nuney, Sanchez, Ramirez, $40M, and a high five.

    Who do they get the high five from?

  218. pkyankfan69 December 18th, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    Who do they get the high five from?
    ————-
    Whoever they desire.

  219. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    “Wow that’s steep for Garza .. I wouldn’t give him more than 3/$40M”

    he’s gonna get way more than that…..he’s pretty good. He’s thrown 7 straight sub 4 era , sub 1.3 WHIP seasons.

  220. pkyankfan69 December 18th, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    Maybe Cash and Hal can hold hands and give the Rox owner a simultaneous high five. (or would that be a high 10?)

  221. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    shame – not a bad article, but his reasoning for why Cano isn’t on the Yankees right now is just flat out wrong.

  222. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    “By comparison, the Red Sox’s farm system is so deep”

    I really don’t understand how people see what Boston does as logical.

    Is it smart to sign $300mil in bad contracts, and they luckily find a trade partner to take them all away for prospects?

  223. Ted Nelson December 18th, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    A lot of people see Jose Ramirez as more likely to be a RP than a SP long-term. Guy just hasn’t been able to get much past the 100 IP plateau. He’s got the stuff to be a great starter, which gets him to #2 in the system in BP’s rankings and into the top 110 for Law last season, but going from never managing more than 115 IP in 4 years of full-season ball to 180-200 IP in MLB is just really unlikely. I think that the Yankees pushed him up to AAA quickly last season in part to prep him for a potential BP role. I’m sure they’d love for some guys to fill up the BP so he can keep developing, but I also think he’s likely a BP candidate. A set-up candidate, even.

    It would’t have surprised me if they grabbed some insurance in a proven RP like Benoit, Balfour, Veras, etc., but I don’t think the BP is nearly the mystery that the media is making it out to be. Logan has now been replaced basically one-for-one. Joba was horrendous last season. Kelley, Claiborne, Warren, and even Nuno briefly were all far, far better than Joba. You’re never going to replace Mo, but DRob is about as close as you can realistically come. Plugging the most capable guy into a set-up role is probably going to get you most of the production that the veteran RPs would at a fraction of the price.

    While people are obsessed with the fact that the Yankees don’t have can’t miss MLB ready prospects, they have great depth. Their system is rated #11 overall by BA and their 40-man is overly full of quality guys (based on the 3 signings they haven’t even added to the 40-man yet). They only lost one guys in the MLB Rule 5, but they exposed several of the most interesting RPs.

    I know the new Yankees fan M.O. is that everything that can go wrong will, but in reality they are well positioned to build a BP internally.

  224. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Jeff Passan ?@JeffPassan 1m
    Source: Atlanta finalizing deal to acquire catcher/outfielder Ryan Doumit from Minnesota.
    Expand

  225. pkyankfan69 December 18th, 2013 at 2:44 pm

    I know it’s not happening but man would this be an epic line up

    CF – Ellsbury
    3B – Jeter
    RF – Beltran
    SS – Tulo
    C – McCann
    1B – Tex
    DH – Soriano
    2B – Johnson
    LF – Gardner

    Hal should offer them $40M and the choice of any 4 prospects.

  226. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    Chip,

    Wow that’s steep for Garza .. I wouldn’t give him more than 3/$40M
    ——————–

    I wouldn’t either. But I believe strongly in the power of ODO.

  227. Chip December 18th, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Jeff Passan ?@JeffPassan 1m
    Source: Atlanta finalizing deal to acquire catcher/outfielder Ryan Doumit from Minnesota.
    Expand
    —————–

    Is Atlanta moving to the American League or is the DH going to the NL?

  228. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    I want Tulo as much as anybody but it’s not happening….at least not now.

  229. Patrick December 18th, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    I wouldn’t either. But I believe strongly in the power of ODO.

    The market ate it’s Wheaties this offseason.

  230. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    not sure what purpose Ryan No mitt serves for the Braves…..the outfield is full…..they already have one all bat catcher…..weird.

  231. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    ID – I don’t necessarily agree with all of his arguments/conclusions, but I think the general idea that not signing a home grown, prime aged, future HOF talent definitely represents a ‘new normal’ for the Yankees.

  232. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    i really don’t know the league well enough to tell you who the knicks should try to get from other teams.

    what the need are draft picks and salary cap room.

    melo’s a great scorer but doesnt do anything else. they’d need 2 more prime players to win with him.

    if they re-sign him after this season, they will be signing off the knicks chances for a championship for at least another 5 years, imo.

  233. bbb51 December 18th, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    Chad, please stop the comments about Jose Ramirez to the bullpen! :(

  234. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    Jon Heyman ?@JonHeymanCBS 3m
    Eric Chavez has deal with dbacks

  235. blake December 18th, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    Eye on Baseball ?@EyeOnBaseball 4m
    Report: Big name publishers vying for A-Rod’s tell-all book http://cbsprt.co/1jiLeR9 via @cbssports

    Juiced….the next generation

  236. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    I thought the most irritating part of the article, as a Yankee fan, was this part: ‘With or without Rodriguez, every member of the Yankees’ projected 2014 lineup will be 30 or older. Individually, old players can have surprisingly good years; collectively, old players decline. This is a lineup in decline, and parts of it weren’t that good to begin with.’

    I don’t think it’s always good to focus on age.. but I hope they try and get that kid Diaz and find a way to sniff out some young INF talent soon. Have any other names popped up from outside the league that we should look at?

  237. Ted Nelson December 18th, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    “By comparison, the Red Sox’s farm system is so deep”

    Funny thing is that the Yankees farm system has really good depth. The 40-man is overflowing with decent young players. I think that pop-culture writers like the Grantland staff get lost in the big names, but the Yankees have plenty of depth.

    Even funnier to me if that the narrative about the Yankees farm system failing this season is almost universal (it’s true, but overly simplistic), but the Red Sox farm didn’t do too much for them either. Iglesias was ridiculously (and most likely unsustainably) hot, but otherwise they a RP, Workman, was their biggest young contributor. Bogaerts had a hot 9 PAs in the ALCS, but otherwise didn’t hit much. They didn’t have the widespread total failure that the Yankees guys did; however, expectations were much higher. A couple of their very best prospects were counted on to contribute and didn’t: Bradley and Middlebrooks. Iglesias and Doubrant were their only two prospects who debuted after 2007 to contribute at least a win. The guys who failed the Yankees on the MLB level were in a lot of cases fairly marginal prospects, not the strength of the farm.

    It seems like Boston is perpetually in the top 5 farm systems in baseball, but what have they actually produced in the past 5 years? I know that this is just how farm systems work to some extent and they do seem to have a ton of talent. I just think that the contrast in the perception of their farm system and the Yankees’ farm system is funny.

  238. Shame Spencer December 18th, 2013 at 2:58 pm

    :arrow:

  239. pkyankfan69 December 18th, 2013 at 2:58 pm

    The Knicks already have traded away their ’14 and ’16 #1 picks… (probably won’t have moved ’15 also if they were allowed)… They are pretty much forced to try to win now… What a mess this year has been, hopefully (and I’m not counting on it) they can start to turn it around with Chandler coming back tonight. What a mess.

  240. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    i read alot about the braves wanting to move bj upton this offseason, so maybe they have something cooking there.

    the could put gattis back in the OF then, he played there most of last year.

  241. Ted Nelson December 18th, 2013 at 3:00 pm

    “Individually, old players can have surprisingly good years; collectively, old players decline.”

    I think that the concept of decline is maybe the single most misunderstood concept among baseball fans. I’m not claiming to understand it fully, but people get so hung up on age and making generalizations about aging curves that it’s ridiculous.

  242. mick December 18th, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    the yanks have never and never will be young.
    if they were this would be the 1st place to look for complaints.

  243. Ys Guy December 18th, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    if my first name were melvin, i’d probably want to go with my nickname, but not if my nickname was BJ.

  244. Irreverent Discourse December 18th, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    Shame – I disagree that a 31 year old FA is “prime age”.

    If anything the conclusion to be drawn from this is that the Yankees are finally NOT spending money like it’s water.


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