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Short-term problems with long-term risks

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 05, 2014 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Mark Teixeira

Two things jumped to mind when I read Al’s morning Pinch Hitter post.

The first was a story from almost exactly one year ago. My friend Dan Barbarisi did his usual standout work, and Mark Teixiera provided his usual honest evaluation: “You’re not very valuable when you’re making $20 million,” Teixeira said. “When you’re Mike Trout, making the minimum, you are crazy valuable. My first six years, before I was a free agent, I was very valuable. But there’s nothing you can do that can justify a $20 million contract.”

The second was a comment I heard from a National League executive this winter. Some of the bigger names were starting to come off the board — and some lesser names were getting multi-year deals at big money — and the executive said to me (paraphrasing here): “No one thinks these contracts are a good idea, but if you want the player, it’s what you have to do.”

Alex RodriguezIt’s been said over and over this winter, and it remains true: free agency is not a smart method of team building. It’s a necessary evil, but it’s certainly not ideal from a team perspective. The game’s top players are — as Texieira said — extremely valuable when they’re young, and they’re overpaid when they’re old. If you’re signing a guy who’s already hit the open market, that means you’ve missed out on those bargain years and you’re taking on the expensive risk of his decline. The Yankees are certainly not the only team with a roster full of cautionary tales, but I do think the three Al mentioned are interesting cases.

· When the Yankees signed Teixeira, he was just turning 29 and he’d been a steady source of batting average, on-base percentage and power. He was an elite defender — at a position he wasn’t likely to move away from as he aged — and he’d been healthy. He’d played all 162 games in two of the previous four seasons. Then he showed up and actually lived up to expectations. Obviously there was long-term risk involved, but this sort of sudden decline? Of all the guys to sign long-term, Teixeira seemed relatively safe.

· When the Yankees signed Sabathia, he’d just provided an insane down-the-stretch performance in Milwaukee (so good that he was in the Cy Young conversation without even spending all year in the National League). He’d won the Cy Young in the American League the season before. He was a legitimate ace, and he when he opted out, he was coming off a three-year run in which he’d finished top four in Cy voting each season. He was the Yankees ace, and so they re-signed him. They needed him, and he’d been steady and durable. Then some injuries, some diminished velocity, and here we are.

· When the Yankees re-signed Alex Rodriguez, he was the best player on the planet. Sure, the new 10-year deal seemed like a horrible idea at the time, but who would have predicted a fall like this? That his power numbers would so steadily decline (he’d been absurdly consistent for 10 years)? That he’d regularly spend time on the disabled list (he was regularly getting 700 at-bats in a season, and he was still in his early 30s)? That he would become the face of the Steroid Era (this guy had been an elite player since high school)?

Those contracts were obvious long-term risks, but they seemed relatively safe in the short-term. And it’s in the short-term that they’ve become problematic. That’s what stands out to me about the Yankees recent success (and failure) with long-term agreements.

The fact that multi-year deals bring long-term risk is not really debatable. Locking up a young player before he hits free agency might be a good thing for an organization, but signing free agents off the open market is not an ideal way to go. Teams know it, players know it, and we know it.

Associated Press photos

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173 Responses to “Short-term problems with long-term risks”

  1. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 11:41 am

    I’m one of the people who feels that the Yankees did not overpay for Ellsbury. Just FTR.

  2. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 11:41 am

    blake February 5th, 2014 at 11:20 am
    “Come on now. Hal didn’t suspend A-Rod. And he thankfully didn’t overpay Cano to create another financial, no-win albatross around the Yankee’s neck. What Hal did is add $475 million in payroll.”

    no he spent 475 million….he didn’t really add anything to the payroll and for 2014 its going to be about 25 million less than last year. They essentially re-arranged the furniture with the payroll with regards to the money on it. Look I like a lot of the moves they made…..I think they are close to being good….which is why I think it’s somewhat short sided for them to leave big holes in the infield and bullpen when they have spent so much money, lost all their draft picks…..and blown up a budget number they have been positioning for for 3 years.

    “It’s February 5th and you and I have zero idea as to how the infield or bullpens are going to shape up. There is spring training and the first third of the season to go through before we will know anything.”

    if you think this infield can stay healthy and productive then ok…..but that’s more optimism than realism IMO.
    _________________

    No owner or GM sits around in the winer seeking to add money to payroll! How do you criticize them for not doing that? You play it out and see who is available and at what price to address the needs of your club. The Yankees did that in spades and spent far more than anyone else did if you want to look at it that way. They did not think the infield choices out there were good enough or worth the price. And, I have no idea who is going to stay healthy and neither does anyone else.

    And I do not see how adding arguably the best leadoff man in baseball and the most sought after starter and one of the top catchers in baseball is rearranging anything. That is just flat out factually wrong.

  3. bigdan22 February 5th, 2014 at 11:42 am

    “In the 2005 Arizona Fall League, Matt Kemp, Joey Votto and Adam Jones participated, but none was named the MVP. Nope, that honor went to the Yankees’ 2003 first-round pick, Eric Duncan. ”

    From ESPN. Shows you just how fickled this prospect game is doesn’t it?

  4. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 11:42 am

    Good post, Chad.

  5. Howler February 5th, 2014 at 11:43 am

    It’s also why I think not signing Cano to the contract he was asking for was a good idea…had he been a free agent coming to the Yankees…people around here would be screaming what an insane deal it was, “do we really need another Arod deal,. “Don’t we learn from our mistakes the first time around,” although I don’t think Tex is done, and I do believe CC is going to have a good year. That’s not being the Eternal MTU either ;)

  6. bigdan22 February 5th, 2014 at 11:44 am

    Re-post;

    I wrote extensively early on in the off season that the Yanks had a conflicted front office. That is, there was a faction in the FO that wanted to cut the budget in the area of $40MM and take a shot at 189, even though that seemingly depended upon the uncertain occurrence that Arod would be suspended for a full season. There also was a competing faction that placed competitiveness over the budget and realized the Yanks would have to spend heavily in the FA market to compete in 2014. Straight rebuilding was not an option.

    Now that the offseason is functionally over for the Yanks, we can look back and see how this all turned out. Essentially we have the Great Compromise. Hal, as final arbiter, decided that while reducing the budget was a laudable goal, it could not stand in the way of the team spending to become competitive. But, in deference to the budgetary hawks in the FO, he would implement some spending reins. Reverting to the finance guy that he is, Hal has imposed a policy that spending must be tied to filling a distinct need. That spending to improve the team will not be accepted unless there is realizable marginal value in the expenditure.

    This is essentially the way it worked out: The Yanks coming into the off season had three distinct needs for which heavy spending would be approved: Catching, pitching and replacing Cano’s offense. McCann easily solved the catching problem. They needed 400 innings of starting pitching (like Cash has said all along) and they got that with Kuroda and Tanaka. If they missed on Tanaka, they would have gone heavy with Garza or the other big names left. Cano was tricky. Ideally they would have liked to sign him but they knew going into the offseason that was unlikely. So they did the next best thing. Since they couldn’t replace his production at 2b, they improved two other positions by signing Beltran and Ellsbury.

    So that’s it. They are done. Just like they’ve been saying for weeks. Holes still remain, for sure, but Hal does not see the options remaining on the market providing marginal value. Quite simply, the players still left are too expensive for their given worth.

    The Great Compromise of 2014.

  7. PhiltheThrill February 5th, 2014 at 11:53 am

    Hal was the budgetary hawk.

  8. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 11:53 am

    Hey, I told the Yankees to sign Ubaldo Jiminez. Did they think I was going to forget? (Okay, if they’re really doing it to save that draft pick, all is forgiven.)

    Interesting about Jiminez. And the other remaining FA. Is it really possible that those guys won’t find homes? Yikes.

  9. Howler February 5th, 2014 at 11:55 am

    Sometimes you take a risk where you need production…they did that with pitching with Colon and Garcia, and what they got at 3b with Eric Chavez. I think they’re going to try that again with Roberts…if he can stay healthy he should be able to provide the team with what they need at 2B.
    Not a compromise, but a roll of the dice.

  10. blake February 5th, 2014 at 11:59 am

    When you combine the Yanks essentially never getting high draft picks and their unwillingness to make trade for young talent then it’s really not that hard to see why they aren’t producing players like some think they should.

    You can’t draft at the back end of the draft…..lose those picks half the time…..and not trade your close to free agency assets and then expect to have a great farm system……you’d have to get extremely lucky for that to happen.

  11. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 11:59 am

    And for those who are in the doldrums waiting for the next to weeks to pass, I have one word for you. SOCHI!

  12. pat February 5th, 2014 at 12:00 pm

    “if he can stay healthy ….”

    too often used phrase in reference to Yankee players

  13. Chip February 5th, 2014 at 12:01 pm

    bigdan -

    Here’s the thing: Hal’s right.

    Look at what’s left out there vs. the Yankee needs. Unless you’re talking about bringing in Kendrys Morales to DH and convert Soriano back to 2b (which is unrealistic) the upgrades that are available aren’t going to be ones that help the Yankees and they aren’t worth what the prices are.

    Sure, they could sign Stephen Drew and then use Drew at 3b and deepen the bench by putting Johnson there – but in terms of risk, Johnson is probably the least worrisome player on the infield. Beyond that, Drew may or may not be working with the Mets on a deal that lets him do what he wants to do which is play SS.

    They could sign Ubaldo, but at this point the Yankees have a bunch of young guys who have earned the right to be looked at for the fifth starter spot.

    Who else is out there on the FA market to go get that represents an upgrade to the guys currently on the roster?

    I’m sure that Cashman will be looking for this year’s Lyle Overbay – the guy who shakes loose of a roster in Spring that can be a help to the Yankees (I’m looking at Danny Valencia of the Royals as a perfect RH bench bat)

  14. Howler February 5th, 2014 at 12:02 pm

    pat you can say that about half the players on any team.

  15. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:02 pm

    “And I do not see how adding arguably the best leadoff man in baseball and the most sought after starter and one of the top catchers in baseball is rearranging anything. That is just flat out factually wrong.”

    it’s rearranging the money…..because per year they are actually around the same payroll wise as they were….actually less this year because Arod is gone.

    I like some of the things they have done this winter and I do think they are a better team now than they were a year ago……my point is that it’s somewhat short sided IMO for them to spend all this money…..ditch a plan they have worked for for 3 years…..and give up all their high picks yet leave such gaping holes in the team.

    If they are going to go for it then go for it…..try to win in the window they have created.

  16. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:05 pm

    The problem with that post Blake is it is a sweeping generalization and does not take into account individual seasons and their circumstances. Injuries, performance, retirements, needs between the lines, etc. The Yankees try to win every year, the fan base demands it and the bottom line suffers when they don’t win. They made moves they felt they had to make. It’s very easy to jump all over them because hindsight is 20-20. We won in large part in 2009 because we acquired Sabathia and Teixeira, etc. The market dictated what we had to pay.

  17. pat February 5th, 2014 at 12:06 pm

    “pat you can say that about half the players on any team.”

    how many were just signed to multi year $100M+ contracts?

  18. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:07 pm

    I think Hal decided they had to go over 189 for for PR reasons and to get a 25 year old starter…..he realizes that the loss in revenue from a fan revolt would greatly outweigh the savings they got from getting under the cap. So he agreed to push to where they are now……but he’s apparently holding the line there.

    So effectively the Yankees lowered the 2014 payroll to 205 million from 230 last year……but it seems like to the fans that they spent a fortune. It’s smart in the sense that they did get better…..and they lowered the payroll to do it……but I would have liked to see them really go all in for 2014 if they were going to blow the budget up and there are just too many holes still on this team to say they did that.

    I do think they are payoff team now though with good health…..and I also think they are a lot more interesting than they were a year ago

  19. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:07 pm

    They try to win every year.

  20. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:09 pm

    “The problem with that post Blake is it is a sweeping generalization and does not take into account individual seasons and their circumstances. Injuries, performance, retirements, needs between the lines, etc. The Yankees try to win every year, the fan base demands it and the bottom line suffers when they don’t win. They made moves they felt they had to make. It’s very easy to jump all over them because hindsight is 20-20. We won in large part in 2009 because we acquired Sabathia and Teixeira, etc. The market dictated what we had to pay.”

    I’m not disagreeing with that……what I’m saying is that as fans you can’t sit there and demand the Yankees win every year and then complain that they don’t have a good farm system…..because to some degree….not winning helps you get a better farm system…..and trading players helps you have a better farm system etc….

  21. Chip February 5th, 2014 at 12:09 pm

    All big money contracts carry risk and it doesn’t matter if the player is young or old. The Yankees got lucky with Derek Jeter’s first big contract, the Twins didn’t with Joe Mauer’s. Thus far the big contracts given to free agents (Alex, Crawford, Pujols, Hamilton, Fielder) haven’t worked out, but that’s not to say that the contract given to Cano won’t.

    You try to mitigate the risk by not buying the decline years, which are starting earlier due to the elimination of PEDs and amphetamines. I hate Randy Levine, but he was right when he pointed out that giving a 10 year contract to a 31 year old player is a lot different than giving one to a 25 year old player.

    Could Ellsbury break down later in his contract? Of course he could. Then again we’ve seen guys on short term contracts who were wastes too (Pavano).

  22. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:10 pm

    “They try to win every year.”

    trying to win when you are good enough to win is great……trying to win when you aren’t like they did last year is counterproductive and actually makes it harder to become good enough to win again.

  23. pat February 5th, 2014 at 12:11 pm

    PECOTA predicting 82 wins and 3rd place AL East finish for Yankees.

  24. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 12:11 pm

    pat February 5th, 2014 at 12:00 pm

    “if he can stay healthy ….”

    too often used phrase in reference to Yankee players
    ///

    Far too often.

    The qualifier, however, has never been attached to a certain left-handed superstar who also happens to be the best middle infielder in the majors.

    You know the guy – dang, it’s on the tip of my tongue, but I can’t think of his name – but he was outside the Yankees’ parameters of “affordability”, and, if I’m not mistaken, he now plays for Seattle….

  25. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:11 pm

    I understand your thinking Blake. But perceived holes in February are a mirage. Spring training, the first part of the season and the trade deadline will mean something in that context don’t you agree? No one knows what will transpire. Isn’t is possible someone you think won’t stay healthy will? Isn’t it possible some players from the minors step up? Isn’t it possible they acquire one or two needs before the trade deadline that solidify a playoff spot?

  26. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:13 pm

    “It’s been said over and over this winter, and it remains true: free agency is not a smart method of team building. It’s a necessary evil, but it’s certainly not ideal from a team perspective. The game’s top players are — as Texieira said — extremely valuable when they’re young, and they’re overpaid when they’re old. If you’re signing a guy who’s already hit the open market, that means you’ve missed out on those bargain years and you’re taking on the expensive risk of his decline.”

    Chad, yep. This has been my biggest beef, and what I have been cautioning against since 2010. Three years ago the Yankees were supposed to mitigate against the FA way of constructing a team. Yet, here we are…

  27. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:14 pm

    blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:10 pm
    “They try to win every year.”
    trying to win when you are good enough to win is great……trying to win when you aren’t like they did last year is counterproductive and actually makes it harder to become good enough to win again.
    ___________________

    You don’t think unanticipated injuries played a huge part in the team’s failures last season? It’s easy to look back and pass judgment when you know the final score.

  28. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:16 pm

    The Yankees had no choice this offseason but to strengthen their team through free agency. It’s not a strategy, quite the opposite, it’s adapting to circumstances many of which are beyond your control. And they did a great job. And soon they will pound the international market for prospects.

  29. bigdan22 February 5th, 2014 at 12:17 pm

    Chip February 5th, 2014 at 12:01 pm
    bigdan -

    Here’s the thing: Hal’s right.

    —–

    And I think you are probably right as well. I hate to keep coming back to Drew, but if Jeter and his contract were to magically disappear, signing Drew now would, I think, make sense. Drew is a SS and a better than average one at that and I think he’d be a significant upgrade at this point. But we all know, if Drew were to be acquired now he wouldn’t play SS. He’d play 3b and I don’t believe his offense would be better than a Johnson/Nunez platoon. In fact, probably worse. While his defense would be better that wouldn’t justify is $10MM+ salary.

    As to the bullpen, the Yanks don’t believe that spending there gives them a better chance of success than using internal options. I personally would have liked to see one dependable reliever acquired. I’m a bit concerned about the bullpen. But there should be options available throughout the season I would imagine.

  30. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:17 pm

    “I understand your thinking Blake. But perceived holes in February are a mirage.”

    come on….the infield is a mirage. They will have to be extremly lucky for that to work out.

  31. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:17 pm

    I would have rather spent the FA money on the MLB-ready IFA’s whom we passed on. Instead, this offseason we have been scrambling to compensate for all the holes the FO created in the first place.

    Keep those ST instagrams/photos coming while we sit out yet another snowstorm up North. #surreal

  32. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:18 pm

    The Astros, Twins and Pirates have the top-three ranked farm systems in baseball. Hello!

  33. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:19 pm

    “You don’t think unanticipated injuries played a huge part in the team’s failures last season?”

    How about the anticipated ones? When you carry age, you multiply risk.

  34. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:20 pm

    “You don’t think unanticipated injuries played a huge part in the team’s failures last season? It’s easy to look back and pass judgment when you know the final score.”

    I said all season they weren’t good enough…..and even if you didn’t think that before the season started it was very clear early on that they weren’t. Injury risk is part of the equation…..they carried tons of it last year and are carrying tons of it this year as well.

    You can’t carry tons of injury risk and then blame injuries for not being good…..

  35. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:21 pm

    “come on….the infield is a mirage. They will have to be extremly lucky for that to work out.”

    The Yankees #stewied us with regard to the IF. I’m guessing we are playing musical lack at new positions each year. Catcher is no longer the (below) replacement level position; infield is.

  36. bigdan22 February 5th, 2014 at 12:21 pm

    pat February 5th, 2014 at 12:11 pm
    PECOTA predicting 82 wins and 3rd place AL East finish for Yankees.

    As I pointed out yesterday, they are also predicting that no American League teams wins 90 games, something that has only happened twice in over 100 years of full seasons and no times in the 50+ years since extending the schedule. Doesn’t sound like PECOTA has a lot of respect for history.

  37. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:22 pm

    it’s like signing Kevin Youklis to play 3B and then complaining about injuries…..or Brian Roberts to play 2B? I mean this stuff is easy to predict.

  38. Chip February 5th, 2014 at 12:23 pm

    Dan –

    Yeah, timing’s not right on Drew but it might be right next year on Asdrubal Cabrera or Jed Lowrie.

    Two thoughts regarding the pen:

    1. We’ve seen time and again that signing a high priced “dependable” reliever doesn’t always work out – Soriano was a god send the year Mo got hurt but the year prior he was ok, guys like Karsay and Farnsworth were busts.

    2. It’s a very easy position to address as the season moves on. If the Yankees find they need a reliever they can go out and get one like they did with Kerry Wood a couple of years ago. That part of it really doesn’t worry me.

  39. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:26 pm

    Boston Red Sox@RedSox
    Roger Clemens, Nomar Garciaparra, Pedro Martinez, and Joe Castiglione to be Inducted into the @RedSox Hall of Fame in 2014

  40. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:27 pm

    yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:19 pm
    “You don’t think unanticipated injuries played a huge part in the team’s failures last season?”
    How about the anticipated ones? When you carry age, you multiply risk.
    _________________

    What anticipated injuries? Granderson and Teixeira were anticipated?

  41. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:28 pm

    I’m not worries about the bullpen. The infield on the other hand…

    And that cool 12mil wasted on Youk was an epic fail from Day One.

  42. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:28 pm

    blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:22 pm
    it’s like signing Kevin Youklis to play 3B and then complaining about injuries…..or Brian Roberts to play 2B? I mean this stuff is easy to predict.
    _____________

    Easy to predict? As in Bartolo Colon?

  43. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:28 pm

    *worried about

  44. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:29 pm

    “Easy to predict? As in Bartolo Colon?”

    they took a flyer on Colon to be part of a 5th starter discussion…..hardly the same as counting on somebody to be your 2nd or 3rd baseman…..

  45. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:30 pm

    yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:28 pm
    I’m not worries about the bullpen. The infield on the other hand…
    And that cool 12mil wasted on Youk was an epic fail from Day One.
    _____________

    Sure, if one is a Monday morning quarterback and believes they can predict the future. The Yankees knew the risk and they took the gamble and it didn’t work out. It very well could have and then no one would be saying a word. All players are risks, some more than others. They had a need to fill and they took a shot. Good for them.

  46. Chip February 5th, 2014 at 12:30 pm

    Blake -

    Roberts was a fall back after they missed on Infante, but really two of the players who are injury risks aren’t guys that they can do anything about. Tex and Derek weren’t guys with injuries that they brought in, they’re guys who were already here who are coming off of injuries. Nothing much the team could do about that except build depth around them.

    A 1b who wants regular playing time like Garrett Jones for example, isn’t going to sign here and bet his playing time on how many games Tex has to miss. And what’s more, the Yankees aren’t in a position to carry a guy like Lyle Overbay on the bench who can only back up at one spot.

    What the Yankees need is that Eric Chavez guy – the talented player who can still produce but is, either because of age or his own injury problems, no longer a regular and willing to accept a lesser role. But the reasons that player is willing to take a lesser role also makes him a risk…they got lucky with Chavez and didn’t with Youk…it happens.

  47. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:31 pm

    Teix, yes. Grandy, no. Most everyone else, yes.

  48. austinmac February 5th, 2014 at 12:33 pm

    I agree Hal spent to prevent a severe fan result and lost income. The problem is if they are non- competitive on July, the empty seats will still happen.

    I disagree with Blake a reasonable option is staying under the cap, but to go over and pretend all is okay is wrong thinking.

  49. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:34 pm

    Chip,
    I don’t have a problem with them throwing Roberts. Johnson, and Sizemore at 2nd and hoping one sticks…..the problem is that they are trusting flyers at 2 positions and two Injury risks at the other spots

  50. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:35 pm

    The Yankees are not counting on anyone to be their second or third baseman all year on February 5th. They are taking a look at some options and if they don’t work out I have every confidence they will address the shortcomings as they need to.

  51. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:35 pm

    “I disagree with Blake a reasonable option is staying under the cap, but to go over and pretend all is okay is wrong thinking.”

    I think they went far enough where they think they fans will buy they are trying

  52. pkyankfan69 February 5th, 2014 at 12:37 pm

    By midseason my prediction is that Kelly Johnson will be the Yankee 2B with Aram at 3B (Roberts naturally on the DL)

  53. bigdan22 February 5th, 2014 at 12:38 pm

    Chip, I think that’s precisely the Yanks’ thinking on the bullpen right now.

    My worry is if they start losing winnable games early in the year because of their bullpen it can have a spillover effect on the entire team. Losing games in the late innings can hurt a team more than just losing outright. Singleton has spoken about that. It effects a team’s psychology and chemistry.

    But there should be options in the marketplace as the year progresses. Wasn’t Kerry Wood one of the best Yankee acquisitions in the last 20 years?

  54. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:39 pm

    yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:31 pm
    Teix, yes. Grandy, no. Most everyone else, yes.
    ____________

    I could not disagree more. No one can predict injuries. Some may be more likely than others based on age and history but every team deals with that risk. What’s the point? You knew Tex was going to get injured? Really? And what should they have done then, not signed him? Perhaps we would not have won the WS in 2009 without him. Again, this hindsight and judgment after the fact is not sensible.

  55. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:40 pm

    I have a lot of confidence in Girardi to figure out the bullpen…..you can’t figure out an infield nearly as easily

  56. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:41 pm

    But there should be options in the marketplace as the year progresses. Wasn’t Kerry Wood one of the best Yankee acquisitions in the last 20 years?”

    It was good…you can find bullpen help during the season or from your farm system….much harder to find a SS or 3B

  57. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:43 pm

    @ESPNNYYankees: Severino, Yanks’ next international star? http://t.co/76MELgzvvr

  58. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 12:43 pm

    “I agree Hal spent to prevent a severe fan result and lost income.”

    I believe Hal spent to win. For the Yankee legacy. I don’t believe for a minute that “severe fan result” and “lost income” were the reasons. But then he announced that he was going to do that in order to field a winning team, quite a while ago.

    As Blojaldo pointed out, the Yankees took a flyer on a certain team configuration, likely anticipating that starting pitching wouldn’t fold and that the players who were scheduled to come back from injury would actually have done so and stayed on the field!

    I think it’s disingenuous to say that the plan was doomed to fail from jump street.

  59. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 12:44 pm

    blojaldo said:

    You don’t think unanticipated injuries played a huge part in the team’s failures last season? It’s easy to look back and pass judgment when you know the final score.
    /////

    I’m not speaking for blake, but I am speaking for a small group that included him that has been admonishing the Yankees for at least four years that they had to start getting younger because there was so much risk of injury and diminished skills residing in the lineup, particularly at three of the four infield positions (and at catcher).

    This was discussed relentlessly here, because offsetting age with its risk of injury and skill erosion remained an urgent area of need, and neglect by the Yankees, which was allowed to fust and fust, (with Cashman finally publicly admitting they had over rated the lineup, which he assured was “fine” over and over again, like so many in here; he was only about four years behind some of us in here who saw the writing on the wall).

    The discussion was further perpetuated because it was consistently challenged by some of the same people here who have either quietly assimilated the viewpoint (though never acknowledging that their vehemence against the “offense is fine” stance was misguided), or who have now congratulated the team for “fixing” what they insisted didn’t need fixing, (which is a very strange stance, indeed).

    Unless you are utterly new here, it would be nearly impossible to have avoided seeing the consistently explicated viewpoints here of certain regulars, including blake, and therefore, intellectually dishonest to now accuse anyone from that very vocal group of Monday morning quarterbacking, regarding inherent risks in the lineup, that have come to fruition in a resounding manner.

  60. bigdan22 February 5th, 2014 at 12:44 pm

    I have a feeling this board is going to be discussing Aramis Ramirez quite a bit come June and July. Straight salary dump. Room in the budget. Instant offense.

  61. AAA February 5th, 2014 at 12:45 pm

    I have a lot of confidence in Girardi to figure out the bullpen…..you can’t figure out an infield nearly as easily

    =====================================

    Girardi has been outstanding at managing the pen, but he’s never had to do it w/o the greatest anchor of all time (‘cept 2012 when he had as strong a back up as you could have w/ Soriano). I think Robertson will be fine in the 9th, but if Girardi makes this work with what they presently have, it will be his bullpen managing masterpiece.

  62. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 12:47 pm

    pineda is the same age as archer and was rated higher in the minors than archer. they picked him up for a product of their minor leagues (who to this point has turned out to be highly overrated).

    so to say that the yankees don’t ever do what the rays did to get/produce archer is incorrect.

  63. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:47 pm

    AAA,
    Fair point ….losing Mo makes it more difficult no question

  64. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 12:49 pm

    i think the yankees have the arms to have an above average BP this year with Drob holding down the closer’s job.

    I would have preferred they reinforce with a more experienced arm but i think they will be fine with what they have.

  65. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:50 pm

    JAP,
    Yes….and you have been saying it too for a long time

  66. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:50 pm

    Blojado, they had risk at every infield position except 2B. They added to that with an old, injury-risk bench in players like Wells and Hafner. Signing Youk in addition to their already risky lineup for 12mil reinforced this flawed philosophy of carrying high risk players. And Teix gets hurt every year; if it isn’t the left wrist, it’s the right wrist; probably compensation issues, wear and tear, etc. Love Teix but let’s face it, his body has been trending downward for a couple of years now, and his LHH is part and parcel of that aging.

  67. AAA February 5th, 2014 at 12:51 pm

    I have a feeling this board is going to be discussing Aramis Ramirez quite a bit come June and July. Straight salary dump. Room in the budget. Instant offense.

    =========================

    You think the Yankees are going to need another DH in July?

  68. blake February 5th, 2014 at 12:51 pm

    bigdan22 says:
    February 5, 2014 at 12:44 pm
    I have a feeling this board is going to be discussing Aramis Ramirez quite a bit come June and July. Straight salary dump. Room in the budget. Instant offense.

    The fly in that ointment might be the brewers being in contention…..they aren’t that bad

  69. bigdan22 February 5th, 2014 at 12:52 pm

    Nice article on Severino Blake. Hope springs eternal even if the weather and calendar aren’t complying :)

  70. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:52 pm

    pineda is the same age as archer and was rated higher in the minors than archer. they picked him up for a product of their minor leagues (who to this point has turned out to be highly overrated).

    so to say that the yankees don’t ever do what the rays did to get/produce archer is incorrect.
    ___
    Different concept though in that Yanks traded cost-controlled prospective offense for prospective pitching. Rays trade players close to FA, post cost-controlled players to reinfuse and get a haul for it.

  71. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 12:54 pm

    Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:39 pm

    yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 12:31 pm
    Teix, yes. Grandy, no. Most everyone else, yes.
    ____________

    I could not disagree more. No one can predict injuries. Some may be more likely than others based on age and history but every team deals with that risk. What’s the point? You knew Tex was going to get injured? Really? And what should they have done then, not signed him? Perhaps we would not have won the WS in 2009 without him. Again, this hindsight and judgment after the fact is not sensible.
    ///

    You can’t “disagree” with what are documented viewpoints of people here who warned for years that Alex, Derek, Teixeira, Posada were all staring down the other side of the mountain and were huge risks for the injury and/or diminished skill.

    blake and CB were two posters in particular here who were prescient in their consistent warnings that Teixeira’s upper-cut, armsy, left-handed swing was not going to age well, well in advance of the rather spectacular decline.

    Did you never see those posts?

    If the answer is “never,” then you haven’t been a consistent reader of this blog, because you could not have avoided them.

  72. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 12:58 pm

    update

    2014 YANKEE PREDICTION CHART

    1/23 Cashmoney 163
    1/24 RayVT 108
    1/23 Trisha 101
    1/24 Hunger Games 101
    2/4 Mottsx 99
    1/22 Kelvin 98
    1/24 Blojaldo 97
    1/22 Poetkiosk 96
    1/23 bbb1 96
    1/24 Howler 96
    1/29 Mike-Boston 96
    2/4 DaSaint007 96
    1/23 Chicken_Stanley 95
    1/23 nettles9nc 95
    1/25 Melkman is in hotlanta 95
    1/29 rm 95
    2/4 Hanks Bar 95
    1/23 tomingeoriga 94
    1/23 GregD 94
    1/25 Yanksinvegas 94
    1/30 Munson15 94
    1/22 Rhapsody in Blue 93
    1/23 Pete2 93
    1/24 Jmills 93
    1/28 blake 93/147
    2/4 Doc Todd 93
    1/23 Austinmac 92
    1/24 kd 92
    1/24 MichelleB 92
    2/4 Iron Horse 92
    1/23 FS48 91
    1/23 Locke 91
    1/23 Tabbert 91
    2/4 Oscar Madison 91
    1/23 Upstate 90
    1/25 Y’s Guy 90
    1/29 Deal With It 90
    1/30 longtime 90
    1/24 Chambliss 89
    2/3 Bronx Zoo 89
    1/23 JimK 88
    1/29 Baby Ruth 88
    1/30 Your Worst Nightmare 87
    1/24 Comet 86
    1/29 Can of Corn 86
    1/24 PKyankfan69 69

  73. Hankflorida February 5th, 2014 at 12:58 pm

    Indiana had the worst record when when Peyton got hurt and they lucked out. Hal had no choice as he took what the market gave him, but he still has two guys playing together in the outfield that do not fit the mold of Yankee championship teams; last year was a perfect example of a team that had to manufacture runs with Gardener and Suzuki and could not do it and the lack of the three run homer meant no baseball in October. If this team can manufacture runs when a walk turns into a double and the batters can hit those seeing eye grounders and the bullpen can dublicate last year without imploding from fatigue, the Yankees will be waiting at home for the one who wins that one playoff win. If is a big word when you are a team that has to keep the line moving playing in a band box.

  74. UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:00 pm

    blake February 5th, 2014 at 11:30 am
    “archer was a 5th round draft pick. the yankees most certainly do get guys like archer in their system.”

    it’s not about where they were drafted though…..it’s about what they turn out to be. Part of that is development…..a big part of it is flat out blind luck.
    ==============================================

    …..a big part of it is flat out blind luck.
    …..a big part of it is flat out blind luck.
    …..a big part of it is flat out blind luck.
    …..a big part of it is flat out blind luck.

  75. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:01 pm

    “Blake and CB were two posters in particular here who were prescient in their consistent warnings that Teixeira’s upper-cut, armsy, left-handed swing was not going to age well, well in advance of the rather spectacular decline.”
    ====================================================
    so how ‘prescient’ was your montero hugging?
    how ‘prescient’ was the campaign for josh hamilton last year.

    did you never see those posts?

  76. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 1:02 pm

    bigdan22 February 5th, 2014 at 12:52 pm

    Nice article on Severino Blake. Hope springs eternal even if the weather and calendar aren’t complying :)
    ///

    Another one of our ‘tainted’ prospects ;).

  77. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 1:02 pm

    “I’m not speaking for blake, but I am speaking for a small group that included him that has been admonishing the Yankees for at least four years that they had to start getting younger because there was so much risk of injury and diminished skills residing in the lineup, particularly at three of the four infield positions (and at catcher).”

    Yep, kind of a common theme here that we felt was a necessity for the present and future health of the ballclub. Getting younger, and mitigating against risky has been a mantra for some of us. And the result of not doing that has been losing, alienating the fanbase (losing money on that front at the Stadium and in TV ratings), the current overspending and getting into lengthy risk-related contracts this offseason, trading off most of our draft picks, and missing out on uber talented IFA’s, etc. The risk oversight on the Yankees part has many repercussions. Hopefully, we can bridge the gap to a stronger core, develop better long-term solutions, and be less beholden to free agency, all of which were the Yankees OWN plan that failed. Again, it was avoidable if the Yankees realized that the O was a weakness, not a strength, and that had made the appropiate moves. Still we have Tanaka in the fold, and hopefully we can get some of the farm developed at the upper levels and contributing to the big ballclub in the Bronx. That still has to be our priority.

  78. Your Name Here February 5th, 2014 at 1:02 pm

    Trisha….

    Can I get 90 wins?

    And Phil Hughes top 10 Cy Young.

  79. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 1:05 pm

    Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:01 pm

    “Blake and CB were two posters in particular here who were prescient in their consistent warnings that Teixeira’s upper-cut, armsy, left-handed swing was not going to age well, well in advance of the rather spectacular decline.”
    ====================================================
    so how ‘prescient’ was your montero hugging?
    how ‘prescient’ was the campaign for josh hamilton last year.

    did you never see those posts?
    ///

    What do Montero and Hamilton have to do with blake being among a small group here who warned the offense was in decline and needed to be addressed?

    And specifically to what you quoted, what do Montero and Hamilton have to do with blake and CB being 100 percent right about Teix’s LH swing?

  80. AAA February 5th, 2014 at 1:06 pm

    “I’m not speaking for blake, but I am speaking for a small group that included him that has been admonishing the Yankees for at least four years that they had to start getting younger because there was so much risk of injury and diminished skills residing in the lineup, particularly at three of the four infield positions (and at catcher).”

    ============================================

    I honestly think that was their intent after the big spending spree of Winter 2008. Problem is it didn’t work.

  81. UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:06 pm

    Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:18 pm
    The Astros, Twins and Pirates have the top-three ranked farm systems in baseball. Hello!
    ==============================================
    Yes.

    …maybe because they sucked and got access to some of the top ‘slam-dunk’ picks ???

    … and maybe when they sucked – they traded away some of their decent ballplayers for ‘younger talent’ or were able to get another draft pick ???

    The Yankee model does not include ‘sitting back and sucking’ for a decade or two…

  82. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 1:09 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 12:44 pm
    blojaldo said:

    You don’t think unanticipated injuries played a huge part in the team’s failures last season? It’s easy to look back and pass judgment when you know the final score.
    /////

    I’m not speaking for blake, but I am speaking for a small group that included him that has been admonishing the Yankees for at least four years that they had to start getting younger because there was so much risk of injury and diminished skills residing in the lineup, particularly at three of the four infield positions (and at catcher).

    This was discussed relentlessly here, because offsetting age with its risk of injury and skill erosion remained an urgent area of need, and neglect by the Yankees, which was allowed to fust and fust, (with Cashman finally publicly admitting they had over rated the lineup, which he assured was “fine” over and over again, like so many in here; he was only about four years behind some of us in here who saw the writing on the wall).

    The discussion was further perpetuated because it was consistently challenged by some of the same people here who have either quietly assimilated the viewpoint (though never acknowledging that their vehemence against the “offense is fine” stance was misguided), or who have now congratulated the team for “fixing” what they insisted didn’t need fixing, (which is a very strange stance, indeed).

    Unless you are utterly new here, it would be nearly impossible to have avoided seeing the consistently explicated viewpoints here of certain regulars, including blake, and therefore, intellectually dishonest to now accuse anyone from that very vocal group of Monday morning quarterbacking, regarding inherent risks in the lineup, that have come to fruition in a resounding manner.
    __________________

    Where do I start. :) To say Cashman “was only about four years behind some of us in here who saw the writing on the wall.” is really preposterous. There is a great deal of passionate, smart baseball knowledge here but to suggest that there is some greater capability among posters here than that possessed by Brian Cashman and the other Yankee baseball people is really silly stuff.

    Cashman and everyone else were and are quite aware of the perils and pitfalls inherent in aging players, long contracts, etc. He more than anyone else understands the benefits of young, cost controlled homegrown talent. But New York has no tolerance for winning later and I dispute there was a strategy to forsake developing talent for free agents, older players and long contracts. They did what they felt they needed to do; what they had to do.

    No one can predict injuries. Trout or Cabrera could break their legs tomorrow and have their careers ruined. The offense was indeed fine then. No one could anticipate the injuries. It is indeed Monday morning quarterbacking to say otherwise. If anyone wants to think adding Sabathia, Granderson, Swisher, Teixeira, Tanaka, Ellsbury, Beltran and McCann the last five years is somehow not good baseball management that’s their right. I think those moves were excellent.

    Everyone agrees that drafting and successfully developing homegrown, young, cost controlled talent is the way to go. Cashman believes that, Hal believes that. The have not had high draft picks, as I pointed out Tampa had three top number one picks in the last ten years. I think (from memory) the Yankees highest first round pick was around fifteen to twenty once and more often than not higher. Yes they made some mistakes drafting, all clubs do. They traded some draft picks to get big league talent they needed to tr to win. That’s important to understand. There is no rebuilding tolerance in New York. I think the Yankees have good people in place they are consummate pros and the Yankees can afford to higher anyone they want to and would.

    I love the moves the Yankees made this off season but there are no guaranties.

  83. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 1:10 pm

    UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:06 pm
    Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 12:18 pm
    The Astros, Twins and Pirates have the top-three ranked farm systems in baseball. Hello!
    ==============================================
    Yes.

    …maybe because they sucked and got access to some of the top ‘slam-dunk’ picks ???

    … and maybe when they sucked – they traded away some of their decent ballplayers for ‘younger talent’ or were able to get another draft pick ???

    The Yankee model does not include ‘sitting back and sucking’ for a decade or two…
    ___________________

    Great post, I agree totally.

  84. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 1:13 pm

    Again, good to see we are finally going to spend on IFA’s. As I have said before, better late than never. And I still very much like our young talent from those 2011 and 2012 classes. Looking for our IFA pitchers including DePaula, Severino, Omar to really impress this MiLB season.

  85. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:14 pm

    just like everybody else in here, you’re right about some things and wrong about others, that was my point.

    and the part about you hugging montero goes directly to your complaining about them not getting younger. until the middle of last season most of your posts about getting younger included some mention of trading away the great jesus.

  86. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 1:14 pm

    Yep, kind of a common theme here that we felt was a necessity for the present and future health of the ballclub. Getting younger, and mitigating against risky has been a mantra for some of us. And the result of not doing that has been losing, alienating the fanbase (losing money on that front at the Stadium and in TV ratings), the current overspending and getting into lengthy risk-related contracts this offseason, trading off most of our draft picks, and missing out on uber talented IFA’s, etc. The risk oversight on the Yankees part has many repercussions. Hopefully, we can bridge the gap to a stronger core, develop better long-term solutions, and be less beholden to free agency, all of which were the Yankees OWN plan that failed. Again, it was avoidable if the Yankees realized that the O was a weakness, not a strength, and that had made the appropriate moves. Still we have Tanaka in the fold, and hopefully we can get some of the farm developed at the upper levels and contributing to the big ballclub in the Bronx. That still has to be our priority.
    ////

    Yankeefeminista,

    I think it wastes the board’s time when people don’t read responsibly and practice a form of deceit or engage in dishonest debate.

    We know who said what: who sat on the fence, who vehemently challenged who over what, who came around or assimilated predictions of others that became standard viewpoints, who now makes references to having been within a certain vocal group but who really wasn’t vocal, etc.

    I can name about 10 regulars (yourself included) who were adamant and consistently vocal about what you posted above (and others who don’t post as often, but who held similar views and came around once in a while to make their point or support a similar one).

    The group was small.

    If there was no intellectual dishonesty, one wouldn’t need to reiterate who said what.

  87. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:15 pm

    i mean, who’s ever wrong when the argument is ‘they should get younger’?

    thats like saying they should try to score more runs.

  88. blake February 5th, 2014 at 1:16 pm

    Where do I start. To say Cashman “was only about four years behind some of us in here who saw the writing on the wall.” is really preposterous. ”

    I don’t think this is it….I think Cashman knew….I think because of 189 Hal shut down spending and he couldn’t do anything about it

  89. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 1:16 pm

    “There is a great deal of passionate, smart baseball knowledge here but to suggest that there is some greater capability among posters here than that possessed by Brian Cashman and the other Yankee baseball people is really silly stuff. ”

    Thank you. QFMLT

  90. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 1:18 pm

    Ys Guy, the philosophy behind trading Montero was flawed. They needed offense, not pitching. If they didn’t like Montero they should have traded him for O. And Montero is not a fait accompli. And Pineda has yet to pitch for us. Hoping they both thrive this season, and that Pineda can be a solid SP for us, but right now the Yankees have nothing to show for that trade.

  91. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    It is not about being right or wrong, it is about what was and is best for the Yankees. And when your GM says that your offense is in its prime when in fact it is not, you have to take issue with that. And Chad was the one who put up the post above about long-term risk. All I can say to that is, duh…

  92. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:21 pm

    it used to be that actually trading montero was a horrible move.

    now it’s become a ‘flawed philosophy” because the player traded turned out to be so flawed!

  93. UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:22 pm

    We should trade Nunez for Seattle’s 6th string catcher….

    Jesus Montero….

    ….everybody would be happy !!!

  94. blake February 5th, 2014 at 1:22 pm

    The offense clearly was decaying since 2009….. I’m sure thy knew about it but Hal wouldn’t allow them to put any money on the 2014 books.

    This is why I think it’s silly to hold a payroll line this year …..they compromised at least the last 2 seasons to position for this 189 stuff

  95. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 1:23 pm

    Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:14 pm

    just like everybody else in here, you’re right about some things and wrong about others, that was my point.

    and the part about you hugging montero goes directly to your complaining about them not getting younger. until the middle of last season most of your posts about getting younger included some mention of trading away the great jesus.
    ////

    Again, these comments don’t have anything to do with blojaldo having accused blake of hindsight regarding his having predicted the probability of risk fulfillment pertaining to the team’s age (and subsequent injuries/decline in skills).

    Try to keep up.

  96. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:24 pm

    as i’ve said several times this winter, the 189 was just meant to distract people. now people talk about how much they spent and that they went over 189 instead of pointing out that they cut the payroll by 10% after missing the playoffs.

  97. blake February 5th, 2014 at 1:24 pm

    “now it’s become a ‘flawed philosophy” because the player traded turned out to be so flawed!”

    Yes it was flawed even now….because what they chose to do was to trade their best prospect for a pitcher instead of signing Yu Darvish. They did this because of 189…..Cashman wanted a pitcher….Hal wouldn’t pay for Darvish so he traded for Pineda.

  98. Howler February 5th, 2014 at 1:24 pm

    I’ll go for that UpState…I still don’t think Montero is a done deal…he could be Tex’s backup that everyone is clamoring for..and be taught how to play the position by one of the best.

  99. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:24 pm

    i think they meant to stay under 189 if they missed on tanaka, but they never intended to miss out on tanaka.

  100. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 1:25 pm

    If they knew about it then why is Cashman quoted as saying multiple times in 2011 that they were trading strength (offense) for weakness (pitching), when the reverse was actually true. Yes, they didn’t want to spend, but they overrated their offense at the expense of pitching.

  101. blake February 5th, 2014 at 1:26 pm

    Ys Guy says:
    February 5, 2014 at 1:24 pm
    as i’ve said several times this winter, the 189 was just meant to distract people. now people talk about how much they spent and that they went over 189 instead of pointing out that they cut the payroll by 10% after missing the playoffs.

    I totally disagree ….every move or non move they made over the last 3 years was because they wanted to position for 2014 to get under that cap.

    It’s why they made the Montero trade…..it’s why they passed on Darvish and Cespedes and Puig and others….it’s why they didn’t nothing to address their decaying club IMO

  102. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 1:26 pm

    Ys Guy, we COULD NOT miss out on Tanaka not only because of his talent level but also because of the PR aspect and the resultant backlash if they didn’t come home with the prize. Good for us!

  103. UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:28 pm

    Howler February 5th, 2014 at 1:24 pm
    I’ll go for that UpState…I still don’t think Montero is a done deal…he could be Tex’s backup that everyone is clamoring for..and be taught how to play the position by one of the best.
    ===========================

    ….AND the faction of devout Montero fans would cry tears of joy !!!

    (I’d actually trade Nunez for even Jesus Alou)

    Cheap back-up that we’re all looking for !

    Win-Win-Win.

  104. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 1:28 pm

    They have nothing to show for the trade so far because Pineda got injured. And he is young. Again, hindsight is twenty-twenty isn’t it? And you are wrong about what the Yankee needs were at the time. The Yankees, had a surplus of DH capable hitters signed to long-term deals, they needed a young hurler to hopefully be their number two.

  105. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 1:29 pm

    blake, yep they wanted to go the cheap Rays-esque pitching route, but they haven’t developed the pitching thus far, in spite of its clear and obvious superiority to the rotting offense. Too bad Pineda’s been a bust so far, ManBan had TJS, Betances was relegated to the BP, etc… Fingers crossed this year on pitching development.

  106. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 1:30 pm

    blake February 5th, 2014 at 1:16 pm

    Where do I start. To say Cashman “was only about four years behind some of us in here who saw the writing on the wall.” is really preposterous. ”

    I don’t think this is it….I think Cashman knew….I think because of 189 Hal shut down spending and he couldn’t do anything about it
    ////

    Here’s where we disagree, blake.

    Cashman many times conflated, for example, the 2012 lineup with the “Stick model” of slug and OBP.

    He was overly simplistic about offense, and his whole “hairy monster” diatribe tells me he isn’t discriminating about things like swing mechanics and hitting zone bats, etc.

    I think that Cashman’s hands have been tied somewhat by Hal, but I don’t think that makes him smart about offense.

    He tried to trade Cano, for instance, three times that we know of.

    To me, there is enough evidence that Cashman is not a good judge of hitting talent (and I don’t mean being aggressive about signing players like Holliday, who are MLB proven).

  107. austinmac February 5th, 2014 at 1:34 pm

    Trisha,

    Many reports said the Yankees income took a big tumble. It is as the result of the perception of the team as much as the record. There is nothing wrong for a business to listen to it’s customers. I believe they did. It also helps win, we hope. Adding good players does both help to win and decrease disgruntled fans. they surely do not want another precipitious drop in attendance or TV ratings. These signings will, for a while, help.

    I do agree with you on Ellsbury. Everything seems like an overpay these days, but I think he is a very good player who will help a great deal while hurting the Sox with his departure. His two injuries which so many want to use to label him as “injury prone” are from running full speeed into another player. I would like one of our injury prone pundits to quantify why others wouldn’t have been hurt by the forces involved.

  108. blake February 5th, 2014 at 1:34 pm

    JAP,
    it may be a little of both but I don’t think there is any question that the 189 goal affected the team and helped lead to where they are.

  109. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 1:34 pm

    It wasn’t hindsight: Cashman himself expressed the huge risk involved in dealing for Pineda (vis a vis the huge injury matrix attached to under age 25 pitchers)…

  110. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:35 pm

    What Cashman said in public about trading Montero is not likely what they really though about him or why they really traded him. They got the most they could for a player they thought had already topped out his value. If they were truthful about the trade they would have said they dont think Montero would actually produce much offense (since they couldnt see themselves actually playing the guy) so they grabbed what they rated at the best player they could get for Montero before his flaws began to overtake the hype surrounding him.

    you have to admit they traded him at the height of his value.

  111. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 1:36 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 1:23 pm
    Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:14 pm

    just like everybody else in here, you’re right about some things and wrong about others, that was my point.
    __________________________

    Again, these comments don’t have anything to do with blojaldo having accused blake of hindsight regarding his having predicted the probability of risk fulfillment pertaining to the team’s age (and subsequent injuries/decline in skills).
    _________________________

    It’s a vigorous baseball discussion with opinions being put forth, accusations is an inflammatory word. Come on now. :) The fact remains that no one can predict injuries and saying I told you so after the fact is not credible. Sorry. There is of course no mention of all the older players who didn’t have injury problems. That wouldn’t suit the agenda right? Mariano, Kuroda, Sorano and Suzuki were all over 37 years of age last year.

  112. UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:37 pm

    Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 1:28 pm
    They have nothing to show for the trade so far because Pineda got injured. And he is young. Again, hindsight is twenty-twenty isn’t it? And you are wrong about what the Yankee needs were at the time. The Yankees, had a surplus of DH capable hitters signed to long-term deals, they needed a young hurler to hopefully be their number two.
    =======================

    We had DH-types.
    NYY realized he really couldn’t catch or run.
    Pineda was the #2 behind King Felix.

    Injuries happen.

    Seattle also realized that Montero couldn’t catch.

    Chapters remain unwritten here.

    (I’ll take the NYY gamble with this one !)

  113. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 1:37 pm

    austin, okay I’ll give you that though I find it hard to imagine the Yankees sitting back and twiddling their thumbs after a 3rd place finish, even if every game had been a sell out.

  114. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 1:37 pm

    blake, and 189 was the most detrimental factor in terms of the long term health of this ballclub. It hurt them in terms of both team construction and financially. Yet it inexplicably became a mantra for many, until recently. Now the mantra is blow it up, but you can’t have it both ways. We are where we are because of 189. I would love for them to save money and develop cost-controlled players, but I am not holding my breath. Still, go farm!

  115. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 1:38 pm

    I totally disagree ….every move or non move they made over the last 3 years was because they wanted to position for 2014 to get under that cap.

    It’s why they made the Montero trade…..it’s why they passed on Darvish and Cespedes and Puig and others….it’s why they didn’t nothing to address their decaying club IMO
    ///

    While this may be true, (and likely is) it doesn’t really support any notion that Cashman has understood what type of hitting the Yankees have lacked.

    If anything, he has consistently over rated slugging as a cover for lacking OBP and contact hitting.

    There are quotes, and roster construction, that support this deficiency.

    It would be far-fetched, for instance, to assume Cashman’s “hairy monster” rhetoric is strategically espoused to cover for financial restraints imposed by his bosses.

    I would say the restraints are there; so is the facile notions he holds about “bats.”

  116. Against All Odds February 5th, 2014 at 1:38 pm

    UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:00 pm

    ——————–

    The Yankees must be the unluckiest team of all time then.

  117. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:39 pm

    so you assume cashman should have seen pineda’s injury as likely because of the risk of young pitchers, but of course they should have had the wisdom to invest $100M in the then-25 y/o darvish because, what, he didnt carry any injury risk?

  118. austinmac February 5th, 2014 at 1:40 pm

    JAP,

    Without question, a number of board memebers vociferously argued for the Yankees to sign Soler, Cespedes, Darvish or similar young talent. Of course, many accused us of being negative because we didn’t recognize the Yankees genius that must be at play.

    It was patent to me that the team was heading in a bad direction. I believe I was the first one(rare credit) in comparing what could happen to my painful 1965. Then, they let the team age as we have now.

    It is done now. Looking forward, I hope they have improved evaluation and development. Otherwise, it will always be the same story, different verse.

  119. UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:41 pm

    Against All Odds February 5th, 2014 at 1:38 pm
    UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:00 pm

    ——————–

    The Yankees must be the unluckiest team of all time then.

    ===================

    Someone has to be.

  120. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 1:41 pm

    There is of course no mention of all the older players who didn’t have injury problems. That wouldn’t suit the agenda right? Mariano, Kuroda, Sorano and Suzuki were all over 37 years of age last year.
    ____
    Suzuki is bionic. Make that world machine a training tool for everyone!

    And those other players you mentioned are post-injury matrix pitchers (and anomalies.) What do they have to do with aging position players who are on the field day in and day out for 162 games?

  121. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 1:43 pm

    The year that the Yankees traded Montero, they finished 2nd in runs in the majors and 12th in pitching. The idea that they needed offense more than pitching certainly isn’t borne out.

  122. fuji February 5th, 2014 at 1:43 pm

    montero is really young still. his career is still in it’s early stages.

    wedge was incredibly bad with young players.
    almost none of the young players
    did well under wedge.
    now the mariners have a new manager who has been a really good hitting coach.

    montero will get a good look from him.
    it’s up to montero.
    he’s got a new manager and a fresh start.

  123. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 1:44 pm

    UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:37 pm
    Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 1:28 pm
    They have nothing to show for the trade so far because Pineda got injured. And he is young. Again, hindsight is twenty-twenty isn’t it? And you are wrong about what the Yankee needs were at the time. The Yankees, had a surplus of DH capable hitters signed to long-term deals, they needed a young hurler to hopefully be their number two.
    =======================

    We had DH-types. NYY realized he really couldn’t catch or run. Pineda was the #2 behind King Felix.Injuries happen. Seattle also realized that Montero couldn’t catch. Chapters remain unwritten here. (I’ll take the NYY gamble with this one !)
    _________________________

    Right on the money an excellent perspective.

  124. UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:45 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 1:43 pm
    The year that the Yankees traded Montero, they finished 2nd in runs in the majors and 12th in pitching. The idea that they needed offense more than pitching certainly isn’t borne out.
    =====================

    Thank you for finding those rankings !

    2nd

    12th

  125. Jerkface February 5th, 2014 at 1:45 pm

    so you assume cashman should have seen pineda’s injury as likely because of the risk of young pitchers, but of course they should have had the wisdom to invest $100M in the then-25 y/o darvish because, what, he didnt carry any injury risk?

    Every pitcher carries injury risk, but in comparison to Pineda he was already beyond the greatest period for injuries in pitchers and had pitched a lot of innings consistently in prior seasons.

    Compare that to Pineda who already had elbow problems in the minors and his fastball and slider came out of no where. He didn’t throw as hard as he did in 2011 in the minors. So guy with history of arm trouble suddenly finds increased velocity, is young, and hasnt really thrown that many innings… who is riskier?

    With Tanaka and Darvish you also aren’t really trying to develop a prospect. They are mostly finished products who need to adjust. Pineda was still a work in progress. Also those guys only cost money, which is the easiest resource for the Yankees to spend.

  126. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 1:47 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 1:43 pm
    The year that the Yankees traded Montero, they finished 2nd in runs in the majors and 12th in pitching. The idea that they needed offense more than pitching certainly isn’t borne out
    ________________________

    That is exactly right and before they traded for Kuroda they had no one to slot in behind Sabathia as their number two. Pitching was their need.

    I also felt they did not believe in Montero’s ability to be a competent above average big league catcher , they had others in the system and they had no room at DH for him. They got something of value instead of waiting too long.

  127. bigdan22 February 5th, 2014 at 1:47 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 1:38 pm

    “. . .would say the restraints are there; so is the facile notions he holds about “bats.”

    —–

    Facile is a really good word. You got conflate in there earlier. You are def winning today :)

  128. blake February 5th, 2014 at 1:48 pm

    “so you assume cashman should have seen pineda’s injury as likely because of the risk of young pitchers, but of course they should have had the wisdom to invest $100M in the then-25 y/o darvish because, what, he didnt carry any injury risk?”

    No. injury risk doesn’t have anything to do with it here…..although Darvish had a much longer track record of pitching and being healthy.

    The point is that they chose to trade their #1 prospect for Pineda rather than just pay money for Darvish…..they did this IMO because they didn’t want to put money on the 2014 books.

  129. UpState February 5th, 2014 at 1:49 pm

    fuji February 5th, 2014 at 1:43 pm
    montero is really young still. his career is still in it’s early stages.

    wedge was incredibly bad with young players.
    almost none of the young players
    did well under wedge.
    now the mariners have a new manager who has been a really good hitting coach.

    montero will get a good look from him.
    it’s up to montero.
    he’s got a new manager and a fresh start.
    ======================================

    A – Where’s he on the Mariners 1B depth chart ?

    B – A – Where’s he on the Mariners DH depth chart ?

    C – Forget being a catcher…he’s 6th.

    D – BU1B for NYY. (interesting – but not worth giving up a good ‘chip’)

  130. blake February 5th, 2014 at 1:55 pm

    The reason the Yankees had to spend half a billion dollars this winter was because of all the opportunity cost of doing nothing the last 3 offseasons.

  131. Against All Odds February 5th, 2014 at 1:55 pm

    Pitching was their need.

    ——————-

    Doesn’t it reflect poorly on them that they have been developing pitching for all these yrs and it’s still their biggest need?

  132. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:59 pm

    mariners.com depth chart doesnt even have montero on it.

    1b: smoak, hart, morrison

    c: zunnino, buck, sucre

    dh: hart, morrison, guitierrez, smoak

  133. blake February 5th, 2014 at 2:03 pm

    “The year that the Yankees traded Montero, they finished 2nd in runs in the majors and 12th in pitching. The idea that they needed offense more than pitching certainly isn’t borne out.”

    you don’t look at the past though with these things…..you look at the future. The Yankees scored 100 fewer runs in 2012 than they did in 2011 and they scored about 100 fewer runs in 2013 than they did in 2012. The offense has been in a slow death since 2009 and it finally expired in 2013 where they scored 650 runs……which was 237 less than the year before the Montero trade.

  134. UpState February 5th, 2014 at 2:03 pm

    Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 1:59 pm
    mariners.com depth chart doesnt even have montero on it.

    1b: smoak, hart, morrison

    c: zunnino, buck, sucre

    dh: hart, morrison, guitierrez, smoak

    =====================================

    C’mon down Nunnie !
    We’ve got a brand new Mariners uniform for you !

    Mr. Montero – here’s a ticket to LaGuardia…

    Good Trading !

  135. blake February 5th, 2014 at 2:05 pm

    and again my point was that they could have addressed their pitching without trading Montero by signing Darvish. They chose not to do that…..chose not to sign Cespedes or Puig or Soler either …..they chose to sign human duct tape for 2 offseasons and now the ground up repair deal has come due.

  136. mick February 5th, 2014 at 2:06 pm

    montero was a symbol to yankee intelligencia.
    those with the big words.

  137. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 2:08 pm

    they took the best player offered for jesus. if someone had offered a position player that they liked more, they likely would have taken him instead. they were going to have to sign fa pitchers or fa hitters at some point anyway, getting the best player available was more important than whether it was a pitcher or a hitter.

    this morning the discussion was about why the yankees dont get guys like archer when in fact the yankees picking up pineda was very similar to the rays getting archer, trading players they had developed for good young pitching. the difference was the rays traded garza because they couldn’t afford him while the yankees traded montero because they didnt think he could help them anywhere.

  138. mick February 5th, 2014 at 2:10 pm

    snobby yankee inteligencia who are better fans than you as they know what it is to see it live.
    and they , most likely, know the finer restaurants and the fancy words.
    and , of course, live in a hotsy totsy neighborhood with scenic views.

  139. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 2:10 pm

    “Doesn’t it reflect poorly on them that they have been developing pitching for all these yrs and it’s still their biggest need?”

    Against, I think it’s a little more complicated than that. I agree with you that they haven’t done a stellar job with developing pitching, but I think we have a mixed bag here. Austin refers to the Yankees waking up because they realize they lost fans in the seats and revenue. Taking that as a given, the Yankees are vitally aware that they are a “win now” organization. For a long time, they developed pitching and then immediately used it as trade bait and went with the big name FA because pitching has been their centerpiece. I wish I could remember all the names, but it bothered me greatly to see a kid come up and do a really nice job pitching and then to see him traded away almost as quickly. So for an extended period of time, their farm system was just used as a trading mill. That was so the Yankees could “win now”.

    It’s pretty difficult to turn that around, it seems to me, when the culture had been the opposite for so long.

    It doesn’t matter how much ballyhooing people might do about wanting to give up a few years of winning in order to bring up the kids. You know that it won’t happen because the vast majority of fans will overrule that notion. Several building seasons might bring fans to games who have fallen in love with some of the prospects, but that is the vast minority.

    MO

  140. blake February 5th, 2014 at 2:12 pm

    “they took the best player offered for jesus. if someone had offered a position player that they liked more, they likely would have taken him instead. they were going to have to sign fa pitchers or fa hitters at some point anyway, getting the best player available was more important than whether it was a pitcher or a hitter.”

    what FA hitters or pitchers did they sign? That’s the point…..the shut down spending for like 3 years to position for 189

    “this morning the discussion was about why the yankees dont get guys like archer when in fact the yankees picking up pineda was very similar to the rays getting archer, trading players they had developed for good young pitching.”

    there is a difference in trading older soon to be free agents for young players and swapping young players for young players…..the Rays don’t do the latter.. And the advantage the Yankees should have is not having to trade their young players for things they can buy.

  141. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 2:13 pm

    Finishing second in O was not relevant, as I argued at the time. They fattened up on bad teams and were mostly fastball hitters who I said would be taken advantage of in the playoffs. Anyone watching the AB’s could see that they were mostly mistake hitters at that point. Kind of obvious.

  142. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 2:13 pm

    It’s a vigorous baseball discussion with opinions being put forth, accusations is an inflammatory word. Come on now. :) The fact remains that no one can predict injuries and saying I told you so after the fact is not credible. Sorry. There is of course no mention of all the older players who didn’t have injury problems. That wouldn’t suit the agenda right? Mariano, Kuroda, Sorano and Suzuki were all over 37 years of age last year.
    ///

    I think you need to be more responsible for what you post.

    You can’t tell a person that “it’s easy” to make judgments when the “results are in,” when that person, in fact, has been warning for several years that the team put itself in a vulnerable position for these results to be fulfilled.

    That is intellectual dishonesty and unfair.

    Everyone who reads responsibly knows that blake made these observations over the years.

    Accusing him of hindsight is deliberately ignoring his having done so; he actually would have every right to say, ‘I feared this would chance and said so, many times.’

    Which he did.

    I’ll bet a quick look through the archives would provide you with ample commentary from blake that he was well out in front of this; I’ll bet many regulars here can also attest to having seen those posts.

    Which means you have no basis for your claim that his observation now comes in hindsight.

    What comes into question, for me, is why someone would deliberately misrepresent someone’s position, which can be easily verified.

  143. mick February 5th, 2014 at 2:17 pm

    Yankee lawyers Unite!

  144. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 2:17 pm

    “what FA hitters or pitchers did they sign?”

    ellsbury, beltran and mccann, kuroda and tanaka for 5.

  145. Against All Odds February 5th, 2014 at 2:18 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue February 5th, 2014 at 2:10 pm

    ———————–

    True a long building process won’t work in NY because fans and the FO won’t stand for it. Losing seasons are forgotten by fans who aren’t in favor of them once they see the plan work.

  146. Against All Odds February 5th, 2014 at 2:19 pm

    .the shut down spending for like 3 years to position for 189

    ——————

    And then changed course once they missed the PS. It’s the same blueprint as 2008. Generation Trey didn’t work out the way they thought and decided spending was the only way out of it.

  147. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 2:20 pm

    Regarding Darvish, again, hindsight is 20-20.

    “Igawa was the bet that did not come in. Darvish was the bet that did. Everybody knows how to pick the winner after the race is over. But sometimes, it is wiser to keep your money in your pocket. That is what Cashman chose to do with Darvish.” — Wallace Matthews

    Cashman got burned on Igawa, why make another potentially disastrous mistake? Cashman chose instead a $10 million bet on a one-year deal for Kuroda, who already had proved he could pitch in the show and would not place a burden on payroll going forward.

    Allow me to point out that the track record of hyped expensive Japanese pitchers has not been a good one overall, as in Daisuke Matsuzaka, Hideki Irabu, Kei Igawa.

    To criticize Cashman and management for not rolling the dice and spending $110 million for Darvish as opposed to $10 million for Kyroda.

  148. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 2:21 pm

    “there is a difference in trading older soon to be free agents for young players and swapping young players for young players…..the Rays don’t do the latter.. And the advantage the Yankees should have is not having to trade their young players for things they can buy.”

    Yep, Darvish would have solved a lot. So, would have a Cuban IFA or two. Plus Yanks would have mitigated the age factor issues. Said when I joined here that Alex could be a complementary player but no longer the go-to guy in the middle. Yanks sorely overrated the durability and primeness of that middle of order with both Alex and Teix’s aging. Especially apparent in that 2010 series vs. Texas. But instead Yankees dealt off the little youth they had. Again, only bringing this up because of Chad’s post above. We are here, overspending because of this age/not in prime/risk trend that we ignored and of course the 189 factor. Again thankfully, we have been able to add some O through FA, but while subtracting some. Just need to finish the job, and pray for development for the team’s future health. I don’t think we will have a shot at HanRam et al…

  149. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 2:21 pm

    while im looking at depth charts i noticed that on yankees.com they list jose campos in their bullpen depth.

    very interesting for a guy who’s never pitched above A ball.

  150. Chip February 5th, 2014 at 2:22 pm

    blake

    The infield is a product of timing.

    We heard them linked to a couple of guys before Roberts was signed (Infante and Freese) Infante got more years than the Yankees were comfortable with and Freese was traded a) before the Alex suspension was upheld and b) for a player the Yankees couldn’t match. Roberts was a fall back.

    Drew is available but if he wants to play SS this year then he’s not coming to the Yankees.

    I know your answer is “they should have kept Cano” but I have absolutely no problem with them not matching that contract.

    They’re stuck, at least for now, with what they have. That’s not to say options won’t become available later – Aramis Ramirez, Jeff Keppinger, Chase Headley, Rickey Weeks, Brandon Phillips…they’ll all be available in June or July if the Yankees are looking.

    What I’m saying is that it isn’t that Hal is intentionally neglecting the issues you’re worried about – it’s just that there aren’t any good solutions right now.

  151. UpState February 5th, 2014 at 2:23 pm

    Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 2:08 pm
    they took the best player offered for jesus. if someone had offered a position player that they liked more, they likely would have taken him instead. they were going to have to sign fa pitchers or fa hitters at some point anyway, getting the best player available was more important than whether it was a pitcher or a hitter.

    this morning the discussion was about why the yankees dont get guys like archer when in fact the yankees picking up pineda was very similar to the rays getting archer, trading players they had developed for good young pitching. the difference was the rays traded garza because they couldn’t afford him while the yankees traded montero because they didnt think he could help them anywhere.
    ====================================

    That’s pretty much ‘on-the-mark’ with Montero, Pineda, Garza, & Archer.

    (and with Pineda….at that time, their pitching was ranked 12th…he was needed more than an another infielder….etc…)

  152. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 2:23 pm

    “Igawa was the bet that did not come in. Darvish was the bet that did. Everybody knows how to pick the winner after the race is over.”

    You cannot seriously compare the two. Anyone who actually watched Darvish pitch before the posting and was aware of his pitching repertoire knew how good he w/could be. So, this is just not competent. Go back and look at people’s post and see who was pro/con Darvish and who thought the conflation with Igawa was categorically ridiculous.

  153. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 2:24 pm

    also pretty ominous for jack z that both pineda and campos are in the yankees plans while he couldnt move montero this winter because he has no value.

  154. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 2:25 pm

    “Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 2:08 pm
    they took the best player offered for jesus. if someone had offered a position player that they liked more, they likely would have taken him instead.”

    Not true by a long shot. Cash consider offense a huge strength and was attempting to shore up what he perceived as a weakness. It was Cash’s dream to create young, cost-controlled pitchers. It was all he talked about.

  155. fuji February 5th, 2014 at 2:27 pm

    A – Where’s he on the Mariners 1B depth chart ?

    B – A – Where’s he on the Mariners DH depth chart ?

    C – Forget being a catcher…he’s 6th.

    what i see is a kid going into his age 24 season with a .699 OPS in 792 mlb plate appearances which was higher than the yankee team average OPS last year.

  156. Chip February 5th, 2014 at 2:27 pm

    blake February 5th, 2014 at 2:12 pm

    there is a difference in trading older soon to be free agents for young players and swapping young players for young players…..the Rays don’t do the latter.. And the advantage the Yankees should have is not having to trade their young players for things they can buy.
    ————————-
    Except that with all the money in the game now the high quality players you’re talking about are getting long term deals from the teams that pick them. Look at what the Braves just did yesterday or what the Dodgers did with Kershaw. Should the Yankees have done that 3 years ago with Cano when Boras brought it up? Yes. But they didn’t and there’s absolutely no point crying over spilled milk.

    The bottom line is that the trade of Montero wasn’t a cost saving thing or a being cheap thing – it was about the organization’s failure to develop Hughes, Joba and Kennedy.

  157. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 2:29 pm

    “Not true by a long shot. Cash consider offense a huge strength and was attempting to shore up what he perceived as a weakness. It was Cash’s dream to create young, cost-controlled pitchers. It was all he talked about.”

    ————————————————–
    you have no way of knowing who was offered nor who cashman asked for. you are going by public statements he made after the fact, which are dubious at best. Everybody wants cost-controlled young pitching, everybody also wants young const-controlled hitters.

  158. mick February 5th, 2014 at 2:29 pm

    what i see is a kid going into his age 24 season with a .699 OPS in 792 mlb plate appearances which was higher than the yankee team average OPS last year.
    ====================
    sounds like you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel.

  159. Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 2:30 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 2:13 pm
    You obviously find it enjoyable to be combative and confrontational on a baseball blog, I don’t. I’ll leave it at this.

    That some people were correct in making generic predictions that most everyone made does not make them more capable than Cashman and that was the inference. That is patently absurd and laughable.

    It’s known by everyone that younger homegrown talent that is cost controlled is better than high cost long contracts with free agents. Including Cashman et al. Why he did what he did is the issue and the answer is complex but I believe it was never a chosen strategy, but doing what you had to do to give your team under the New York media and fan microscope in New York a chance to win. That’s what they did successfully in 2009 and that’s what they did this off season.

    The fact remains that saying I told you so after the fact is not credible and neither is predicting injuries. I pointed out older players who did not get injured. The answer, Ichiro is bionic. Last comment, what about all the predictions that were wrong? Oh.

  160. mick February 5th, 2014 at 2:30 pm

    montero was a hype job withou a position.
    a generational hitter?
    i’ve got a bridge to sell ya..

  161. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 2:30 pm

    There is of course no mention of all the older players who didn’t have injury problems. That wouldn’t suit the agenda right? Mariano, Kuroda, Sorano and Suzuki were all over 37 years of age last year.
    ///

    Look, I don’t know you, so I don’t know if you’re being deliberately obtuse or not.

    But you seem to be throwing around some unfounded criticism at someone who has backed up what he is now saying, so you are the one I question, not this “agenda” he supposedly has, that you speak of.

    The injuries are most felt when they happen to players who are the core of your team.

    Given their age, that injuries have befallen Jeter and Alex was not only entirely predictable, the great risk was actually predicted.

    Jeter and Alex down mean less support for Robinson Cano, the other “big bat” in the Yankee lineup.

    There’s a reason why, when people put “greatest ever” Yankee infields together, all three of those guys are in it.

    Two of them occupied key roles in the Yankee lineup; given their age, what has happened to them was predictable. The Yankees were not going to gain any real leverage in the standings without those two guys, and they have failed to reinforce the lineup to mitigate against their injury and/or decline risk.

    The Yankees came to life when Alex returned, and for a month or so, he and Soriano breathed life into the lineup.

    I thought, maybe because Alex had some rest, that the age would be less of a factor, because he hadn’t been through a grueling season. Sadly, it was not to be; he reinjured himself, and Soriano suffered the (thumb? IIRC) injury, Jeter went down again, and Cano again found himself unsupported in the lineup and the guy an opposing manager could just refuse to pitch to again.

    They had a chance to make it, yes. But the huge risk that older players can get hurt – and in this case, older players who are, arguably, the best at their positions in your team’s history and both former superstars – came to pass.

    In conclusion: the Yankees had no answer for losing those players to injury, because they had failed to reinvigorate the lineup since winning the 2009 World Series.

    That has been the essential argument against the Yankees sitting on their thumbs and letting guys like Puig and Cespedes go, trading Cabrera and Montero, and basically assuring everyone that “the lineup is fine,” a stance that Cashman himself finally disavowed as a mistaken one.

  162. Ys Guy February 5th, 2014 at 2:30 pm

    ====>

    another tanaka picture!

  163. Against All Odds February 5th, 2014 at 2:31 pm

    It was Cash’s dream to create young, cost-controlled pitchers. It was all he talked about.

    —————————-

    For yrs upon yrs upon yrs. He had visions of being the Braves of the 90s. We’re still waiting for that

  164. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 2:32 pm

    “True a long building process won’t work in NY because fans and the FO won’t stand for it. Losing seasons are forgotten by fans who aren’t in favor of them once they see the plan work.”

    Odds, I don’t agree. This is a cop-out. Teams win all the time with youth. Building entails judicious infusion of young players, not some wholesale rookie slated for every position. The idea that older players who no longer have the bat speed are a better bet than younger players who can actually hit even though they may have to make adjustments is so silly. And it is another one of those Yankee truisms like we have to get to 189 which fans ate up until the Yankees started losing and then fans didn’t. Cash talked about being patient with Pineda ad nauseum and everyone bought into it, as they should have. After all, he was a young pitcher. The Yankees can make fans eat out of their hands, as long as they win. But tell me Vernon Wells and Travis Hafner are great signings and are going to make us a stronger team, and I as a fan am not going to buy into that malarkey. Ditto, signing Youk.

  165. yankeefeminista February 5th, 2014 at 2:34 pm

    Against All Odds February 5th, 2014 at 2:31 pm
    It was Cash’s dream to create young, cost-controlled pitchers. It was all he talked about.

    —————————-

    For yrs upon yrs upon yrs. He had visions of being the Braves of the 90s. We’re still waiting for that
    ___
    Right. So the idea that they would have traded Montero for a position player is just revisionist history. Cash wanted to be the Rays pitching cost-controlled core. It was his big plan for saving Hal money and getting to 189. But it didn’t work.

  166. J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 2:38 pm

    Blojaldo February 5th, 2014 at 2:30 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock February 5th, 2014 at 2:13 pm
    You obviously find it enjoyable to be combative and confrontational on a baseball blog, I don’t. I’ll leave it at this.

    That some people were correct in making generic predictions that most everyone made does not make them more capable than Cashman and that was the inference. That is patently absurd and laughable.
    ///

    Trying to deflect at me doesn’t help your case, blojaldo.

    I am supporting a responsible poster here, who is not only not guilty of your sloppy challenge, but whose position is on record as, in fact, the opposite of now being in “hindsight.”

    Now his predictions are “generic.”

    How about you coming clean that you took wild swings without any evidence?

    Whether you own up or don’t, everyone who reads here knows who said what, so that means they know blake didn’t make those judgments in hindsight.

  167. Spudz February 5th, 2014 at 3:12 pm

    Put me down for 93 wins please.

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